Would you let your GF wear anything she wants? Your wife?

[FUEL2009]

This is the Sharia law, and the civilized first world will not accept this

The same socalled 'civilized world' which is butchering people around the world in the name of war against terror.

 

[neox3d]

yes and when we were at the top we did the same, but they take care of their own, unlike us. thats the difference.

 

[haroonshaikh]

This thread is becoming too personal. Legend brother, try to set examples in a hypothetical situation and please make sure they do not resemble or point directly or indirectly to anyone.

 

[LeGenD123]

This thread is becoming too personal. Legend brother, try to set examples in a hypothetical situation and please make sure they do not resemble or point directly or indirectly to anyone.

I understand but OP threw an insulting label at me several pages ago without realizing what that can lead to. On top of this, he didn't clarify his position which he should to prevent misconceptions from shaping up as apparent from my response # 290.

I try to ensure balance in my posts. Even in my latest response, I pointed out all the issues in OP's responses and clarified to him the distinction between what constitutes as insulting and what does not.

Label conceptions:

Burger = misinformed
Doormat = projection of emasculated mindset
Male chauvinist = feminist insulting/shaming tantrum against sense of self-worth of men

If people are using labels, they should know what they constitute. If labels such as burger and doormat are riling-up someone, that someone have issues. Men talk like this even in "Mazak" manner but I don't throw labels around without context, I try to be respectful to people. Unfortunately, people sometimes pick wrong cues from certain analogies.

Use of insulting labels will be discouraged at any cost. This is a Pakistani community, not some Western community where feminists would be permitted to insult sense of self-worth of men with their shaming tactics. [WARNING] DONT.

 

[lifeinabucket]

And why would you make this kind of assumption? I am not the one who is discussing my personal matters here or that of others. It is illogical for you to make assumptions about my personal matters.



And you have serious mental issues, I think. Why would label someone's wife as prostitute just for the sake of argument? Did I regard your wife in such a way?

I don't think anyone's wife is a prostitute here. That's a dumb statement to think. I was merely replying to your weird statement, that if you put forward a discussion, then I have to prove to you, that I was not talking about my own wife.

You can easily scroll up the thread, and find out who I was talking about.

If you can't be bother to scroll Yaar, why should you even comment on a matter you know nothing about?

Do you see the futility of your statements?

You want the OP to tell you everything when you comment, yet you refuse to look yourself at the start of the original thread. That is the most weirdest way to discuss.

I adopted analogous tone, not confirmative tone. When you didn't clarify your position after post # 290, I assumed that you are likely discussing your personal situation. When you are having a discussion with someone [You started an argument with me in the first place], it is your responsibility to clarify your position. This is discussion ethics.

Well clearly I need discussion ethics.

Isn't it your responsibility to see what you are typing about others?

Apparently not.

You whine a lot.

So do you!

You haven't responded to my points like a man but you have chosen to label me male chauvinist. My assertions are as follows once again:-

1. Define boundaries in marriage
2. Have stronger sense of self-worth and don't let your wife to walk over you. This doesn't implies male supremacy in any way or form.
3. A strong man is likely to be a strong father-figure. The word "strong" doesn't implies abusive individual in any way or form but a person who is assertive, wise and knows when to stand up for his values.

This is all. You spun my assertions in an entirely different direction.

Emasculated men commit following errors:

1. Do not define boundaries in their marriages.
2. Believe in gender equality but let their wives walk over them. Doormat projection; have little sense of self-worth.
3. Falsely regard men with relatively stronger sense of self-worth and superior moralistic values as male chauvinists and jerks.

This is all fascinating , but it's just the opinion of one man.

I am beginning to think that clearly our opinions are not gonna match.

But if you can call such men emasculated, based on purely your opinion only, don't I deserve the right to call such men "Male Chauvinists" Based on purely my opinion only?

Why is that your opinion holds credence over all others.

Are you blessed more than some others?

Emasculated men plus burger types have following mindset:

1. Have little understanding of their own values but believe in supremacy of others like Western cultures and norms.
2. Whine about societal evils but do not realistically analyze ground realities around them.
3. Have little knowledge of their own surroundings.

Continue to read below...

There is nothing wrong with following Western Norms if they are showing the right path.

You are so blinded by your faith for Islam, that you cannot even think that something else could be right.

Not only 2+2 are 4 but also 3+1 can be four.

Two different things can be right at the same time.

But you are unlikely to ever agree.

And this is exactly where you are wrong. Tell me which Western society is progressive and in what sense?

Economic? All Western societies are doing poorly in this front
Social? All Western societies are in decay in this front

Also, this particular discussion of comparative societal values have nothing to do with discussion at hand.

Are you seriously advocating that Economy of Pakistan and UsA is equal , of Pakistan and German is equal? The World Economy is miles ahead. If you think Pakistan is equal to them , i can't help you anymore.

Rapes and prostitution are small issues? Their are signs of corruption in Western societies in all walks of life actually. Institution of marriage is in decline in those societies, over there men try to screw even married women; cheating have reached epidemic proportions; promotion of pornography; too much objectification of women.

Not small issues. But at least they are progressing in science and other things. Our progress is stagnant in all 3 fields be it science, economy or social values. If you still think that we are making better progress than west in science and Economy, again I can't help you.

Sweeping generalization. In some parts of the country, yes. In the entire country, no.

In most parts of the country, yes. In some parts of the country no. That's how I perceive it, but I could be wrong.

If you claim yourself to be a Muslim, then educate yourself about Islamic conceptions of right and wrong in proper fashion and gender rights as per Islamic values, specially role of men in Islam.

The way you educate me, I am sure I have no chance of learning anything useful.

Don't be a hypocrite.

Okay.

Whatever analogies I presented, they were in a certain context. I blew nothing out of proportion.

If you say so.

I pointed out Pakistan in the context of societal decay actually, I pointed out that when their is no accountability of bad/questionable behavior in a society, it spreads and corrupts the entire society. The purpose of this analogy was not to compare Pakistan with any other society but that "you don't compromise on bad/questionable behavior, period." Check post # 262 for confirmation..

Also, your personal values are defined by your beliefs which includes religion.

You cannot separate Islam from social matters. Islam is not some set of rules, it is a complete way of life for people.

A Muslim Man will not compromise on modesty factor of his wife, same cannot be said about a non-Muslim man. As I pointed out before, every Muslim man should know what is right and wrong as per Islamic values. And standing up for your values (if you are not in the wrong) doesn't makes you abuser of women like you mistakenly assumed in your post # 269 directed towards me..

Clear?.

Yes, one should clearly learn Islamic values and Islamic way of life.

But I don't think controlling your wife is included in this aspect.

Otherwise, I have problems accepting a religion which gives sweeping powers for the man to control his wife as he desires.

Those labels are used to shake people out of passivity and give them stronger sense of self-worth. They are used normally in discussions, specially in communities about relationships to shake people out of passivity and make them realize that they need to stand up for their values (if they are not in the wrong) and not let others walk all over them.

This label "male chauvinist" is a feminist method of insulting sense of self-worth of men. This is not the right label to throw around in a discussion.

Clear?

Sounds to be the labels that you are using , I have to accept.

And that the ones that I use are really derogatory for your eyes and ears.

Even if I don't accept it, I'll apologize for hurting your feelings for calling you a "Male Chauvinist"

Well, this is your personal mindset but you are wrong here. Even a Western professional will tell you this.

Why boundaries are important in a marriage?

Ans: To prevent decay and destruction of marriages. People change with passage of time, never assume that they will remain the same throughout their lives.

Their are books on this matter: Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: 9780310243144: Amazon.com: Books

Most importantly, you can learn a great deal about importance of boundaries in marriage in relationship forums (Western as well).

Boundaries are established quid pro quo when you marry.

Those boundaries are , that thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not sleep with other men , while you are married to another.

Other boundaries are made by men to exercise some degree of control that they so severely feel they lack in a relationship.

You may disagree, but a real relationship can prosper without boundaries if you are in love.

I have to repeat my point again as I said before.

What you are advocating may win you short-time respect, but never long-term love.

If that's the trade-off you're willing to make , then that's your personal opinion and it's fine by me.


I am not running away from this situation. Also, you need to check your tone in discussions, when did you cross the lines?

1. Labeled me male chauvinist.
2. Insulted me in post # 328. You should have clarified your position earlier in this thread to avoid this situation as I pointed out to you in post # 334.
3. Assumed my wife as a prostitute without reason, something you shouldn't do.

In the nutshell, you need to learn about debating ethics.

1. Clearly you found that offensive, see above and I'll take that back since you find it so offensive.
2. You deserved that, as I said, because you want people to explain something to you, when you are clearly posting in that thread. Let that be a lesson, that one shouldn't post in threads blindly.So won't take that back.
3. I didn't literally call her that. Already explained above what I mean. Again if that hurt you, I take that back.

You have crossed the line several times in your responses to me by now. I pointed out some above. This is very serious matter. Don't do this.

I'll try not to insult you further.

My patience clock is ticking. When the time will come to make a decision, it will set an example for others in this community to not cross lines.

I don't mind if you throw mild labels in a discussion but you should learn to differentiate between what constitutes as an insult and what not.

You can ban me because that's what only keyboard warriors can do.

I am not scared of being banned, because I took a differing view from you.

If you set me as an example so be it.

But I am proud , that I have a differing view from the Male dominant Mentality here. Didn't say Chauvinistic

Just male dominant mentality.

 

[Pseudonym]

[MENTION=882]LeGenD123[/MENTION],

I'm not into quote trains so I'll pass.

Burger is an ever evolving epithet it used to be the local 'wasp' equivalent it now means any number of things.

Male chauvinism: The belief that men are superior in terms of ability, intelligence, etc.

If I'm not mistaken (clumsy burger of me and all : ) You agree with that.

That makes you a male chauvinist. I'm a burger and/or doormat in your eyes thats fine.

Kthxbai.

 

[haroonshaikh]

There is nothing wrong in following western countries in order to prosper provided we do that with in our limitations( in terms of education, science, medicine, jobs, NOT like opening bars, clubs, casino etc ).

It is quite depressing that we ignore something that is right in our religion ( Huqooq-ul-ibaad) but hate westerner's following these under the label of ethics. We talk about Islam and yet we are fighting like babies here. Blaming each other that he started first. Seriously, if we do not know how to communicate in a manner not to hurt someone, then we should be the least likely person commenting on women's clothes. We don't get to follow Islam selectively.Follow it as a whole. Pray 5 times, fast, give charity ( These are FARZ). If we are full filling these then i would suggest moving to the sunnah. About 90% of Islam is based on being a good HUMAN. So are we that human? A question that all of us need to ask ourselves..

Note ( statement WE implies to all of us including me ). No offence to anyone in particular and apologies if i offend anyone.

 

[Crow]

Use of insulting labels will be discouraged at any cost. This is a Pakistani community, not some Western community where feminists would be permitted to insult sense of self-worth of men with their shaming tactics. [WARNING] DONT.

lol, dang female apologists!! how dare they

neckbeard level: my holy book is more anti-feminist than yours

 

[gamer11]

gf can wear what ever the hell she wants,its her life
but wife is ur family so she'll wear what u wish,compromise on both sides maybe complete or half

 

[neox3d]

I understand but OP threw an insulting label at me several pages ago without realizing what that can lead to. On top of this, he didn't clarify his position which he should to prevent misconceptions from shaping up as apparent from my response # 290.

I try to ensure balance in my posts. Even in my latest response, I pointed out all the issues in OP's responses and clarified to him the distinction between what constitutes as insulting and what does not.

Label conceptions:

Burger = misinformed
Doormat = projection of emasculated mindset
Male chauvinist = feminist insulting/shaming tantrum against sense of self-worth of men

If people are using labels, they should know what they constitute. If labels such as burger and doormat are riling-up someone, that someone have issues. Men talk like this even in "Mazak" manner but I don't throw labels around without context, I try to be respectful to people. Unfortunately, people sometimes pick wrong cues from certain analogies.

Use of insulting labels will be discouraged at any cost. This is a Pakistani community, not some Western community where feminists would be permitted to insult sense of self-worth of men with their shaming tactics. [WARNING] DONT.

I really have a hard time understanding you @LeGenD123. On one hand you use terms like burger/doormat with a free hand, when someone calls you back you personally find it insulting. You generalize quite a bit with your labels and again when someone else says something you throw the "foul" card of generalization on the table.

Atleast set a straight standard, if you are going to call other people burger/doormats, you should be prepared to hear something back, it would only be fair...else stop calling others and you will be rewarded the same way.

And then you warn others that a feminist tone is insulting and you don't find your own tone insulting. Obviously it is insulting to others that is why you are being called a male chuvanist too, because you are insulting others too.

Western community or not "do unto others as you want others to do unto you."

 

[LeGenD123]

I don't think anyone's wife is a prostitute here. That's a dumb statement to think. I was merely replying to your weird statement, that if you put forward a discussion, then I have to prove to you, that I was not talking about my own wife.

You can easily scroll up the thread, and find out who I was talking about.

If you can't be bother to scroll Yaar, why should you even comment on a matter you know nothing about?

Do you see the futility of your statements?

You want the OP to tell you everything when you comment, yet you refuse to look yourself at the start of the original thread. That is the most weirdest way to discuss.

Once again, you are missing the point.

I kept "analogous" tone in my post # 290. When you didn't clarify your position from that point, I got the wrong cue from this lack of response from you.

You may not have been talking about your personal matters at the starting aspect of this thread but their are so many pages in between, a discussion can branch off to any direction including towards your personal matters.

When "analogous" tone comes up in a discussion, it is better to clarify some things at that point for the sake of preventing discussions from branching off to directions where you may not want them to. Basic debating ethics.

Also, you made a very cheap remark about my personal matter just for the sake of argument. In real life, you may have ended up with broken jaw if you had insulted someone's wife without reason in such a manner. Be very careful about what you convey.

Unless their is a reason for you to make a remark about someone's wife, don't do it. I didn't attempt to insult your wife in any way or form, I went with the vibe that your wife is not caring about her modesty and you are being powerless to stop her. At this point, you should have pointed out to me that this discussion is not about my personal matter but that of another. This would have prevented confusion and I would have owned error on my part. What you did is you came back on me with insulting remarks instead of not realizing your errors.

Well clearly I need discussion ethics.

Isn't it your responsibility to see what you are typing about others?

Apparently not.

I do exercise caution when I discuss something, I didn't personally insult you or something. I made a general statement some pages back and you struck back at me with "male chauvinist" remark. I have clarified to you that this a Feminist shaming tantrum and you should no use it, insulting remarks can lead to heated exchanges.

So do you!

Another tit-for-tat exchange.

I don't whine, I present statements and arguments as per CONTEXT. I don't try to spin my arguments in different directions. In all of my responses, I try to be consistent and bring my "square one" points back to equation.

Whining is to not understand someone's position and bring lot of excuses in to the equation to paint someone in bad brush like you did.

This is all fascinating , but it's just the opinion of one man.

I am beginning to think that clearly our opinions are not gonna match.

But if you can call such men emasculated, based on purely your opinion only, don't I deserve the right to call such men "Male Chauvinists" Based on purely my opinion only?

Why is that your opinion holds credence over all others.

Are you blessed more than some others?

All of my points are consistent, this is why you are riling up and trying to project me as I am in the wrong and being inconsistent. Present a reasonable counterargument if you can. What you are doing is just throwing statements around for the sake of argument.

Emasculation mindset is reflective of weak sense of self-worth in men, who don't know when to stand up for their values (if they are NOT in the wrong) up against female gender.

Burgers are those who are misinformed about lot of things themselves by try to dismiss others in same way. I have noticed lot of issues and sweeping generalizations in your posts, what does this tells us all? You continue to lend credibility to my assessment about burgers with your responses.

I know when to stand up for my values [If I am NOT in the wrong] up against female gender. I respect females but I would not put them on the pedestal without reason.

There is nothing wrong with following Western Norms if they are showing the right path.

You are so blinded by your faith for Islam, that you cannot even think that something else could be right.

Not only 2+2 are 4 but also 3+1 can be four.

Two different things can be right at the same time.

But you are unlikely to ever agree.

The red part is where you have made sense, good. But below this, you came back to projecting burger BS.

I am not blinded by Islam, in-fact, it opened my eyes and granted me sense to notice signs of decay and imperfections in the entire world and not just Pakistan. I found out that no society is perfect and that Islam is being misunderstood.

Western societies are in the process of transforming in to matriarchies with male productivity in the decline and too much female empowerment at the cost of rights of men. Islam ensures balance in this respect; Islam gives men some exclusive rights and women some exclusive rights and some rights to both in equality context. Islamic conception of gender rights positively reflect upon human biological and psychological strengths.

In Western societies, emasculation of men have reached such proportions that male productivity have started to go down and lot of men have become doormats in relationships. I can notice signs of this kind of mindset making an entry in Pakistan as well, thanks to burger types who don't know anything about their cultural backgrounds and blindly adhere to supremacy of Western ideologies.

Women are not as masoom as you consider them to be, taali khabi eik haath se nahin bajj ti. Their comes a time, when any person (irrespective of gender) should be put in his/her place. Women are prone to as much societal evils as men are, they kill, abuse, nag, and do all kinds of shit that men are known to do. This is why it is necessary to ensure balance in social matters between both genders.

Also, slavery is not something that women have suffered/continue to suffer, men have been slaves too and continue to. Get your history in order.

Societal issues never plague just one particular gender, they plague both genders. It is not wise to focus on rights of just one gender and ignore the rights of other gender. Adopt a neutral and humanistic approach in these matters instead of Feminist mindset that men victimize women too much and not the other way round. Don't buy too much in to Feminism. And educate yourself about ground realities of Islam before you label yourself a Muslim.

Are you seriously advocating that Economy of Pakistan and UsA is equal , of Pakistan and German is equal? The World Economy is miles ahead. If you think Pakistan is equal to them , i can't help you anymore.

Did I said that Pakistan matches USA and Germany in economic front? My point is that none of the Western countries are doing well in economic front, their GDP growth is too low and debt have gone too high. These are not signs of progress.

Not small issues. But at least they are progressing in science and other things. Our progress is stagnant in all 3 fields be it science, economy or social values. If you still think that we are making better progress than west in science and Economy, again I can't help you.

Pakistan is producing scholars and they contribute to scientific progression just like scholars of any country do. Issue is that Pakistan offers limited opportunities for educated lot to exercise their potential to their maximum.

And progress in the field of science do not define social values. These values are defined by sense of right and wrong and moral fabric.

Western societies have very poor social values in current times. Their supposed superiority is superficial in this aspect.

In most parts of the country, yes. In some parts of the country no. That's how I perceive it, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you are wrong. I notice lot of signs of freedom of women in major metropolises of Pakistan (largest concentrations of populace in the country).

The way you educate me, I am sure I have no chance of learning anything useful.

You have Holy Quran, Sunnah and scholarly works to educate yourself in this matter. You are grown-up man, you can consult these sources yourself to find out the truth.

If you are still confused about certain matters, you can ask me to provide clarification.

Okay.

Good

If you say so.

It is the case.

Learn something about CONTEXT based debating. In a context based approach, you present analogs in context, in relation to a certain statement of yours. You don't involve sweeping generalizations and branch off to unnecessary directions. The other approach is wild debating.

Yes, one should clearly learn Islamic values and Islamic way of life.

But I don't think controlling your wife is included in this aspect.

Otherwise, I have problems accepting a religion which gives sweeping powers for the man to control his wife as he desires.

You harbor a misconception about this element. What are you trying to assert by this statement?

Freedom of expression is an ideology which does not fits with Islamic ideology. In Islam, Muslims are expected to protect and stand up for Islamic values.

Islam grants men the responsibility of guardianship of Islamic values, Men have the permission to preach Islam openly and are encouraged to be employed and lead. Women are expected to be obedient and respect their husbands [If they are NOT in the wrong]. This kind of arrangement does not implies that men are superior to women in the context of human rights, just that men have greater responsibilities on their shoulders since God Almighty made men tough in both physical and psychological respects. Women have the responsibility to take care of their husbands and raise responsible citizens of the society, women are not encouraged to be disobedient to their husbands unless husbands want them to act against Islamic principles. Women do have rights like they can refuse to feed their milk to their babies and their husbands should not force them in this respect. However, both husbands and wives have the responsibility to prevent social decay of their families, both have the right to attempt to prevent their partners from being immoral.

In short, men have greater leadership responsibilities and women have greater societal nurturing responsibilities in an Islamic setup. Islam does not encourages spoiling of any gender and remains true to gender strengths.

ANALOGY: A Muslim husband would take the matter of modesty of his wife seriously and not compromise on this matter. A non-Muslim may not. Reason for a Muslim man to take such a stand is because he knows that Islam is strict about matters of modesty of women. If his own wife is not going to be modest, he will be failure of a husband. This a boundary in relationships in ISLAM.

Sounds to be the labels that you are using , I have to accept.

And that the ones that I use are really derogatory for your eyes and ears.

Even if I don't accept it, I'll apologize for hurting your feelings for calling you a "Male Chauvinist"

No, you need to know this:

Label conceptions:

Burger = misinformed
Doormat = projection of emasculated mindset
Male chauvinist = feminist insulting/shaming tantrum against sense of self-worth of men

If people are using labels, they should know what they constitute. If labels such as burger and doormat are riling-up someone, that someone have issues. Men talk like this even in "Mazak" manner but I don't throw labels around without context, I try to be respectful to people. Unfortunately, people sometimes pick wrong cues from certain analogies.

Use of insulting labels will be discouraged at any cost. This is a Pakistani community, not some Western community where feminists would be permitted to insult sense of self-worth of men with their shaming tactics. [WARNING] DONT.

Boundaries are established quid pro quo when you marry.

Those boundaries are , that thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not sleep with other men , while you are married to another.

Other boundaries are made by men to exercise some degree of control that they so severely feel they lack in a relationship.

You may disagree, but a real relationship can prosper without boundaries if you are in love.

I have to repeat my point again as I said before.

What you are advocating may win you short-time respect, but never long-term love.

If that's the trade-off you're willing to make , then that's your personal opinion and it's fine by me.

Look, I am presenting an argument that is globally sound and recommended in matters of relationships.

Communication is a very important part of any relationship. Boundaries become apparent when you discuss your concerns with your partner. Yes, people do have a basic understanding of what is right and wrong but communication is the key to know each other's reservations better.

Lot of marriages crumbled or turned bad due to lack of communication in important matters including boundaries. Do not assume that your wife understands everything or that you understand everything. Both of you will learn.

I am not running away from this situation. Also, you need to check your tone in discussions, when did you cross the lines?



1. Clearly you found that offensive, see above and I'll take that back since you find it so offensive.
2. You deserved that, as I said, because you want people to explain something to you, when you are clearly posting in that thread. Let that be a lesson, that one shouldn't post in threads blindly.So won't take that back.
3. I didn't literally call her that. Already explained above what I mean. Again if that hurt you, I take that back.

1. Any male with sense of self-worth will find this remark offensive.
2. Once again, it is your responsibility to clarify your position if a discussion reaches analogous tone. Explained above.
3. That was cheap attempt from you to insult me in tit-for-tat fashion without realizing errors in your ways. Explained above.

I'll try not to insult you further.

Good for you.

You can ban me because that's what only keyboard warriors can do.

I am not scared of being banned, because I took a differing view from you.

If you set me as an example so be it.

But I am proud , that I have a differing view from the Male dominant Mentality here. Didn't say Chauvinistic

Just male dominant mentality.

Keyboard warriors?

My responsibility is to keep people in line. What will happen to you will depend upon how you interact with people.

I have warned you that you have crossed lines in this discussion and made this apparent to you where and when. Now no need to get defensive in this respect. Just own your shit and be done with it.

As far as my position is concerned, I will present better analogies next time.

 

[LeGenD123]

I really have a hard time understanding you @LeGenD123. On one hand you use terms like burger/doormat with a free hand, when someone calls you back you personally find it insulting. You generalize quite a bit with your labels and again when someone else says something you throw the "foul" card of generalization on the table.

I have noticed sweeping generalizations about Pakistan and its men in this thread, I have noticed remarks representing "emasculated mindset" and I have noticed those who are misinformed about ground realities of the world, trying to paint others in same light.

What would u expect?

Doormats are those who do not have a say in their relationships, they just voice their concern but are not assertive about their "good" values. What is so offensive about this?

Burgers are those who are misinformed about ground realities of the world, falsely believe in supremacy of WEST and try to malign their own cultural norms and men. What is so offensive about this?

Don't harbor this kind of mindset and don't get labeled in the befitting manner. Harbor a balanced worldview and learn to differentiate between right and wrong in proper context.

This is not USA, this is Pakistan. You need to be careful about how you project Islam, Pakistani men and all that. Do point out the flaws but in objective fashion and don't try to tell us that what Americans do is right and we are stupid and wrong.

Atleast set a straight standard, if you are going to call other people burger/doormats, you should be prepared to hear something back, it would only be fair...else stop calling others and you will be rewarded the same way.

See clarification above.

I didn't label OP as burger until he labeled me male chauvinist first. Also, I didn't label him burger just for the sake of argument, I noticed how he projected himself to me without trying to understand my position. His statements and reactions affirmed my assessment of him.

1. Do not label a man a male chauvinist without knowing him. Feminists are known to do this, not real men.
2. Be balanced in your views in your country. Don't try to project Western righteous upon us, notice flaws in West too.
3. Notice good things of Pakistan as well.
4. Have a strong sense of self-worth, do not be insulting or abusive towards others. However, you should know when to stand up for yourself in front of females.
5. No need to assume that ONLY YOU are defender of women rights, don't mistakenly assume that people don't have female relationships and don't care about their rights and needs.

And then you warn others that a feminist tone is insulting and you don't find your own tone insulting. Obviously it is insulting to others that is why you are being called a male chuvanist too, because you are insulting others too.

Western community or not "do unto others as you want others to do unto you."

See above.

Pakistan is a country defined by religious values and mindset apart from all of its flaws. Not all men in this country are women-haters but male pride is something Pakistani men cherish. Don't insult them on this front with feminist tones and don't try to project Western ideologies upon us without reason and logic. Do not forget that this country is not a playground for Western liberals to run amock and continue to insult its customs.

Look at this another gem from OP: http://www.pakgamers.com/forums/f3/why-pakistanis-jealous-try-stop-192721/

I do sympathize with him on the matter how he got treated in a Pakistani firm but his story represents another tirade against Pakistan on the whole. Pakistani this and that, chauvinists, pigs and blah blah

 

[Crow]

the frequency with which you can affect other people's opinions via confrontation on an online forum is something like 1 out of ∞
@neox3d just be glad that the poll results are in your favour and move on.

 

[LeGenD123]

I get Pakistan bashing and all that but what is with the infatuation of people with Western ideologies? I don't get this.

Western societies mein freedom of expression tu hai per wahan pai women ka prostitutes jaisai hisaab ho gaya hai. Lanat hai aissi societies pei.

 

[LordIT]

Hum bas pregnancy rates ko pakar ke hi bethain rahain ge aglay 600 saal tak. Physical intimacy is prevalent in Pakistan among unmarried couples and anyone saying otherwise is kind of living in fantasy. Say what you will about my company, but if I know 100 people, 80 of them have been physical at one level or another. So the argument that our society is better than the West because we have less sex is kind of void then.

The word mard is being thrown around in this thread as if it is a superior being. Mard bano, failure mard if you cant control your wife. Bhai wat da fak? I'm obviously not going to change anyone's ingrained beliefs but it does make me chuckle a bit.

We've reached the 21st fucking century and one of the most active discussions on this forum is what should women be allowed to wear and how we should enforce our mardangi.

 

[Gizmo]

Look at the poll guys. I think this thread is settled for now. Most people will protest if they disagree with the choice of clothes but will unltimately respect their partner's wishes.

inb4 "Most members to bache hain" :tv:

 

[LeGenD123]

Hum bas pregnancy rates ko pakar ke hi bethain rahain ge aglay 600 saal tak. Physical intimacy is prevalent in Pakistan among unmarried couples and anyone saying otherwise is kind of living in fantasy. Say what you will about my company, but if I know 100 people, 80 of them have been physical at one level or another. So the argument that our society is better than the West because we have less sex is kind of void then.

Their is social decay in Pakistan in morality context which is an unfortunate trend, nobody is disputing this. But not on the level of Western societies yet.

This social decay is outcome of lack of religious values in the current generation, the burger class within current generation which is infatuated with Western ideologies but have no understanding of cultural values of their own nation as well as religious background.

Religious orders prevent social decay, this is why they were formed. Religious orders are beneficial to the society on the whole if implemented properly. Religious orders defined civilizations and ended the trend of barbarism.

With religious values going in decline, barbarism is making return. It just got new branding: "freedom of expression."

The word mard is being thrown around in this thread as if it is a superior being. Mard bano, failure mard if you cant control your wife. Bhai wat da fak? I'm obviously not going to change anyone's ingrained beliefs but it does make me chuckle a bit.

We've reached the 21st fucking century and one of the most active discussions on this forum is what should women be allowed to wear and how we should enforce our mardangi.

Once again, liberal types spin things in wrong way.

No one is talking about controlling a wife. I presented the concept of defining and enforcing boundaries in marriages which is globally recommended phenomenon. This is gender neutral phenomenon.

Their is need for checks and balances in a society to prevent its decay, similarly, their is need for checks and balances in relationships to prevent its decay. This level of control is constructive.

The liberal types have fallen too much in to the concept of freedom of expression. Even Western societies have rules and norms to CONTROL the damn society in certain respects.

In an Islamic society, people should not wear whatever they want to. People should practice modesty.

 

[Crow]

You can do whatever you like with your life and I think most people will do what they want with theirs. You can't force them or vice versa... the soapbox speeches aren't going to affect the larger overarching pakistani culture (which really is not as religious as you make it out to be, and never has been).

 

[hasanJ]

The polls should put the OP's initial point to rest as ~84% the ppl here are not in favor of "My way or the Highway"
Those who havent voted based on their reservations against Options 1 and 2 certainly havent favored Option 3 either

Only a few ppl have voted for Option 3 including a guy who could wind up on the "Sex offenders" list

 

[LeGenD123]

You can do whatever you like with your life and I think most people will do what they want with theirs. You can't force them or vice versa... the soapbox speeches aren't going to affect the larger overarching pakistani culture (which really is not as religious as you make it out to be, and never has been).

Do not forget that Pakistan was founded on religious principles; differentiation between Muslims and Hindus.

Pakistan currently suffers from identity crises because lot of parents didn't do their homework, these parents ended up raising a generation which is (blindly) infatuated with Western ideologies. This generation wants to promote Western ideologies in this nation (without having sense of what is good for this society on the whole) and envisions a secular Pakistan. This is also one of fundamental causes of social strife in Pakistan in current times.