Should consensual sex outside of marriage be punishable by law?

[ubuntu83]

my friend your wrong on this one the prophet (saww) punished the jews engaged in premarital sex by showing them the verses from the torah , sharia law is will be applicable to non muslims as well , ask zar wali khan sahab about that hadith .

In that particular case the Jews had the similar laws as Muslims. But as you say so I will ask.

 

[babloo]

In that particular case the Jews had the similar laws as Muslims.

but there is no religion that allows sex outside marriage , only mere belief's like athiest do but those are not religions .

 

[ubuntu83]

but there is no religion that allows sex outside marriage , only mere belief's like athiest do but those are not religions .

But there are religions that allow marriage with mothers and sisters etc. like Zoroastrians. They were allowed to do that in Islamic societies. Although It's not the same case.

Edit sorry I take my words back. That wasn't the case.

 

[babloo]

But there are religions that allow marriage with mothers and sisters etc. like Zoroastrians. They were allowed to do that in Islamic societies. Although It's not the same case.

that practice is of the pharaoh's(firoun) astaghfirullah , may Allah save us from this heinous act and hell fire , i got your point by the way .

 

[Shyber]

Well, we can make this thread a bit more interesting by trying to ponder over the consequences/benefits of non-institutional sex. Hypothetically, let's say that there are no religions and no religious framework to establish that sex is forbidden outside marriage.

Let's discuss the benefits and harms NOW. I have a few theories but I'd like some other intellectual people to first share their thoughts before I describe how I see the longterm/shortterm effects leading to gains/losses.

 

[ubuntu83]

One harm that I see is that people who engage in this is that they'll just consider it as a mere act for enjoyment and wont marry and reproduce. Many western countries are giving huge benefits to the couples that marry and reproduce. They are having a shortage of workforce and some of them will soon become minorities in their own countries.

 

[opethian]

Well, we can make this thread a bit more interesting by trying to ponder over the consequences/benefits of non-institutional sex. Hypothetically, let's say that there are no religions and no religious framework to establish that sex is forbidden outside marriage.

Let's discuss the benefits and harms NOW. I have a few theories but I'd like some other intellectual people to first share their thoughts before I describe how I see the longterm/shortterm effects leading to gains/losses.

harms still u wana discuss harms ... 21 pages have gone one was narrating harms n other was just fighting him ...
we need to find out any benefits if we consider no religious bounds ...
i asked same thing few pages back n one guy had no answer except blaming me ... for having 'a very high horse' ... aise situation main HARMS discuss na he hoon tou behtar hai cause HARMS r relative ... meray liye cigarette pina harm hai but my father is a smoker ... [just an example by the way]

i think discussing harms n fighting over it ... kafi ho chuka ... as it will further enflame this discussion n will go sideways ... what u say about that

 

[Shyber]

One harm that I see is that people who engage in this is that they'll just consider it as a mere act for enjoyment and wont marry and reproduce. Many western countries are giving huge benefits to the couples that marry and reproduce. They are having a shortage of workforce and some of them will soon become minorities in their own countries.

The "aging economies" - right?
What about thoughts on safeguarding rights of a single mother?

 

[Raza7154]

Let's discuss the benefits and harms NOW. I have a few theories but I'd like some other intellectual people to first share their thoughts before I describe how I see the longterm/shortterm effects leading to gains/losses.

good post... made me come back..

for starters, i believe the risk of STD's is the main problem here... then throw in the unwanted pregnancies, men leaving women because of said pregnancies making them have to raise the children on their own, the growing rate of abortions because of these early pregnancies all come here.... another factor would be that people get into this way early and lose track of the important things in life, like their education and career....

on a more deeper scale, there is a lot to be said about self-respect and a person's view of oneself.... i know a lot of people who sleep around, and some (mostly girls) do tend to get all depressed at one point, and start losing their self-esteem.... a lot of boys are only in the relationship for sex, and that leaves some of the girls emotionally crippled. in my own social circle, there have been 2 suicides for this reason.

 

[ASKnASK]

Well, we can make this thread a bit more interesting by trying to ponder over the consequences/benefits of non-institutional sex. Hypothetically, let's say that there are no religions and no religious framework to establish that sex is forbidden outside marriage.

Let's discuss the benefits and harms NOW. I have a few theories but I'd like some other intellectual people to first share their thoughts before I describe how I see the longterm/shortterm effects leading to gains/losses.

I doubt many people can put themselves in such a place and make a purely subjective observation. I'm sure many of us can't imagine our sisters/daughters engaging in sexual intercourse casually with some guy they like and stuff.

Let's try though

I believe if we were all like that, we wouldn't be so offended and off put by women/men who regularly have sex with different partners. It would be considered normal. And let's face it.. sex IS fun. There is no denying that sex is enjoyable, quite a bit if you know what you're doing. Propagation of the human race isn't its only objective.

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good post... made me come back..

for starters, i believe the risk of STD's is the main problem here... then throw in the unwanted pregnancies, men leaving women because of said pregnancies making them have to raise the children on their own, the growing rate of abortions because of these early pregnancies all come here.... another factor would be that people get into this way early and lose track of the important things in life, like their education and career....

on a more deeper scale, there is a lot to be said about self-respect and a person's view of oneself.... i know a lot of people who sleep around, and some (mostly girls) do tend to get all depressed at one point, and start losing their self-esteem.... a lot of boys are only in the relationship for sex, and that leaves some of the girls emotionally crippled. in my own social circle, there have been 2 suicides for this reason.

Let's also assume that if we live in such a society, condoms would be easily available and regularly used

As for the emotional part, I don't think that if girls are OK with having casual sex, they'd mind if they get dumped like that. Mind you, we're talking about a society where casual sexual encounters are common.

 

[Raza7154]

Let's also assume that if we live in such a society, condoms would be easily available and regularly used

you'd be surprised to know how even condoms can't prevent certain STD's and can't always prevent pregnancy... Moreover, most of the people use birth control instead of condoms.

As for the emotional part, I don't think that if girls are OK with having casual sex, they'd mind if they get dumped like that. Mind you, we're talking about a society where casual sexual encounters are common.

once again, i believe you are confused. It's not casual sex we're talking about. it's pre-marital sex. and even i'm talking about a society where teen dating and sexual encounters are the norms. like i said before, i know 2 girls who killed themselves over this. dangerously low self-esteem and some bad choices behind them, and they couldn't live with themselves.

 

[Shyber]

I doubt many people can put themselves in such a place and make a purely subjective observation. I'm sure many of us can't imagine our sisters/daughters engaging in sexual intercourse casually with some guy they like and stuff.

Let's try though

I believe if we were all like that, we wouldn't be so offended and off put by women/men who regularly have sex with different partners. It would be considered normal. And let's face it.. sex IS fun. There is no denying that sex is enjoyable, quite a bit if you know what you're doing. Propagation of the human race isn't its only objective.

Let's also assume that if we live in such a society, condoms would be easily available and regularly used

As for the emotional part, I don't think that if girls are OK with having casual sex, they'd mind if they get dumped like that. Mind you, we're talking about a society where casual sexual encounters are common.

What if there's a world where EVERYONE does Sex ONLY for fun - all pregnancies are either prevented or aborted. We're looking at extinction then, no?
Or of course, we're looking at the propagation of only those ideas and mentality which believes in institutional procreation.

In short, those who have sex only for pleasure are destined to phase out faster than the "species" intending procreation and transference of culture and practices to future generation.

(Am just thinking TOO mathematically and long term)

But here's another interesting question. Who would you prefer to have sex with, someone who's exclusive or someone's who's had a few other partners?
Personally, I can see a lot of avenues of stress/depression/anxiety opening up when you remove the bounds of long term partnership.

And adding another note here - Marriage isn't only about sex: This Recently Married Man Just Realized Marriage Is Not For Him

 

[opethian]

I'm sure many of us can't imagine our sisters/daughters engaging in sexual intercourse casually with some guy they like and stuff.

Let's try though

charity begins at home ... why not ... do start it
opcorn2:

rnt we assuming many things here ... a society with no religion ... where this social change has already reached to that tolerance level where consensual sex is easy ... cause such social change will take years ... perhaps next 5 to 10 yrs in cities like islamabad karachi Lahore but many more years in other cities of Pakistan [i hope we r still talkin about pakistan] ... even lets say we fast forward to say 2070 when this topic is not even a topic its way of life ... then ur very right ... no one will have any emotional impact of its bad out come ... emotionally girls will be much stronger n more confident ... positive change ...

 

[ASKnASK]

you'd be surprised to know how even condoms can't prevent certain STD's and can't always prevent pregnancy... Moreover, most of the people use birth control instead of condoms.

once again, i believe you are confused. It's not casual sex we're talking about. it's pre-marital sex. and even i'm talking about a society where teen dating and sexual encounters are the norms. like i said before, i know 2 girls who killed themselves over this. dangerously low self-esteem and some bad choices behind them, and they couldn't live with themselves.

Low self-esteem and bad choices combined with fear of retribution from the family and society in general. These kinda things won't happen in a society where sex isn't considered taboo.

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charity begins at home ... why not ... do start it
opcorn2:

rnt we assuming many things here ... a society with no religion ... where this social change has already reached to that tolerance level where consensual sex is easy ... cause such social change will take years ... perhaps next 5 to 10 yrs in cities like islamabad karachi Lahore but many more years in other cities of Pakistan [i hope we r still talkin about pakistan] ... even lets say we fast forward to say 2070 when this topic is not even a topic its way of life ... then ur very right ... no one will have any emotional impact of its bad out come ... emotionally girls will be much stronger n more confident ... positive change ...

5 to 10 years? Never gonna happen. These things will always happen in the dark corners of the city away from the eyes of the general public.

Or you know, parts of the elite class, in their own social circles maybe.

 

[Raza7154]

Low self-esteem and bad choices combined with fear of retribution from the family and society in general. These kinda things won't happen in a society where sex isn't considered taboo.

you're thinking too much about "what others will say" instead of thinking "what have i done", "where is my life going".....

your decisions catch up with you at one point... for some, it's too early... you probably can't relate to what i'm trying to say.... but people still have emotions... even if they go all out and hump everything that moves, there will come a point when they will stop and ask themselves what they're doing....

for clarification, the people i'm talking about aren't in Pakistan. they were English actually.... and as you said, sex isn't a taboo there.... even so, they are dead

 

[opethian]

Low self-esteem and bad choices combined with fear of retribution from the family and society in general. These kinda things won't happen in a society where sex isn't considered taboo.
5 to 10 years? Never gonna happen. These things will always happen in the dark corners of the city away from the eyes of the general public.
Or you know, parts of the elite class, in their own social circles maybe.

isnt it still going on ... no religion or law is stoppin it from happening it right now ... so my time frame is very exaggerated ...
n in a society where consensual sex isnt considered taboo they might not have anything else worth inspiring ... but atleast their self esteem will be very high ...

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you're thinking too much about "what others will say" instead of thinking "what have i done", "where is my life going".....

your decisions catch up with you at one point... for some, it's too early... you probably can't relate to what i'm trying to say.... but people still have emotions... even if they go all out and hump everything that moves, there will come a point when they will stop and ask themselves what they're doing....

for clarification, the people i'm talking about aren't in Pakistan. they were English actually.... and as you said, sex isn't a taboo there.... even so, they are dead

dhondnay say khuda b mil jata hai ... u can find such people here too ... in unexpected places ... we associate such kind of social advancement with big cities ... laikin u will be surprised when a surprise will hit u ...

 

[Gizmo]

What if there's a world where EVERYONE does Sex ONLY for fun - all pregnancies are either prevented or aborted. We're looking at extinction then, no?
Or of course, we're looking at the propagation of only those ideas and mentality which believes in institutional procreation.

In short, those who have sex only for pleasure are destined to phase out faster than the "species" intending procreation and transference of culture and practices to future generation.

(Am just thinking TOO mathematically and long term)

But here's another interesting question. Who would you prefer to have sex with, someone who's exclusive or someone's who's had a few other partners?
Personally, I can see a lot of avenues of stress/depression/anxiety opening up when you remove the bounds of long term partnership.

And adding another note here - Marriage isn't only about sex: This Recently Married Man Just Realized Marriage Is Not For Him

If we live in a world ewhere everyone only wnated to have sex for pleasure alone and never wanted to procreate then we'd either go extinct or perhaps at some point we'd find a practical and efficient way to produce human beings in tanks and continue the race that way, the governments of the world in a last ditch effort could start there own breeding programs or something where volunteers could donate their genetic materials and then the resulting infants could be raised in facilities by people who can stand being near kids all the time. Sounds kind of bleak right?

But ofcourse in the real world there will always be people who want to have children.

As for the second question, well you raise a very good point and I can see how situations like that might become awkward, but then again just becuase a person wants to have sex outside of marriage it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be getting laid left and right either, I'd need to look at some stats to know for sure but I don't think that even in countries where extramrial sex isn't a taboo the average number of sexual partners per person would be too high (barring the one night ony stuff)

Awesome article btw.

 

[Shyber]

But ofcourse in the real world there will always be people who want to have children.

Right and hence I added the point:

Or of course, we're looking at the propagation of only those ideas and mentality which believes in institutional procreation. - See more at: http://www.pakgamers.com/forums/f3/...tside-marriage-183529/index6.html#post2262117

As for the second question, well you raise a very good point and I can see how situations like that might become awkward, but then again just becuase a person wants to have sex outside of marriage it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll be getting laid left and right either, I'd need to look at some stats to know for sure but I don't think that even in countries where extramrial sex isn't a taboo the average number of sexual partners per person would be too high (barring the one night ony stuff)

Not left and right, but still we're talking about sex without love - that's an amazing philosophical debate in itself.

Awesome article btw.

Thanks dude.

 

[opethian]

after reading this thread ...
word 'bastard' should be rephrased ... or it should not be treated as an abuse ...

 

[Gizmo]

Not left and right, but still we're talking about sex without love - that's an amazing philosophical debate in itself.

Sex without love? That's a very interesting thought.

But Why do we have to associate sex with love at all? they are two very different things, You don't have sex with everyone you love and you don't love everyone you have sex with. Although I suppose having sex with someone you love might increase the pleasure gained from the act but still there's nothing wrong with having sex with someone whom you have no major emotional attachment with just for the sake of pleasure.

If we consider sex to be an activity we perform with someone only for pleasure then how is it any different from playing Co-Op games with that person? You don't need to be in Love with a person to play cricket with them, So why do we need love for sex?