MULTI Baldur's Gate 3 released - 814K+ peak CCU on PC, Top Selling Pre-Order on US PSN

[Necrokiller]

Maybe by actually playing it for some time, feeling like throwing up, and then turning it off?

Using a UI marker to pinpoint a location, then head in said location and end your turn before picking an action isn't my idea of complexity.

That's not how it works though. Go on, try again. I'll give you a chance to correct this statement. Watch some videos and come back

Final Fantasy XVI, DMC, Bayonetta, and many more games have no slow-down, even if a few do use radial menus for a few things.

And all those games combined don't have the systemic depth of Baldur's Gate 3. They're all just blindly-button-mash-to-victory archaic design. Not my idea of complexity if we're really gonna get reductive like that

Meanwhile, BoTW/ToTK aim to give you more options and how do they achieve it? That's right. Shitty radial menus for abilities and shitty serial searching for switching between inventory items during combat. Both pause the game and you can take all the time to think your strategy while the enemy waits for you to unpause before they can get back to whatever they were doing lmao

We've now established that you need to continuously pause the action if you want to give players more options in these action games. So much for being real time all the time. Yikes!

Lmao @ using the Witcher 3 and its shitty radial menu for signs as a benchmark for real-time combat. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I didn't even mention Witcher 3 but remember how it "ruined yo lyfe"? Yeah, still living rent free in your head
Besides, you don't have to use the radial menu in W3 if you're on KB+mouse or using a Steam Controller. Sucks for you I guess. KB+mouse is just superior like that. And Steam Input AI+Steam Controller were just way ahead of its time

Maybe for you. You won't be able to pull off a complex combo in DMC

What's complex about button mashing brain dead enemies in these games where you have to unlock 1-hit death modes to add any degree of challenge to the game? Pulling off complex combos you say? I'd rather pull off complex combos in games with superior real-time combat systems, for e.g. Tekken

On the contrary, you're displaying a lack of understanding of how combat works in games where it is real-time

Not really. One has to be capable of understanding the benefits of both and realize what works best for your design goals. You're the only one here who thinks real-time is inherently superior in all aspects and should be the goal for all games, when it ain't. If it was up to you, chess would've be a real time time game played in 3rd person perspective where the player can't see the entire board and every piece is free to move however it wants

 

[Necrokiller]

Bear made the tiger grumpy.

 

[CerebralTiger]

I'd rather pull off complex combos in games with superior real-time combat systems, for e.g. Tekken

If it was up to you, chess would've be a real time time game played in 3rd person perspective where the player can't see the entire board and every piece is free to move however it wants

Wow nice combos! How about we go one on one in Tekken 8 and Chess online and settle who has a better understanding of both actual combat and faux simulation. Bear made the tiger afraid. I am so getting owned

 

[Necrokiller]

CerebralTiger not even attempting to defend the "shitty" radial and "shitty" serial search driven menus of BoTW/ToTK speaks volumes. Chalo kuch to seekha

 

[CerebralTiger]

Lmao seekha? Already sikha chuka hoon that the delay in bringing up these menus renders them useless for any passive attempt at combat that Necrokiller thinks he can get away with in TOTK in his imaginary world

 

[Necrokiller]

Lmao seekha? Already sikha chuka hoon that the delay in bringing up these menus renders them useless for any passive attempt at combat that Necrokiller thinks he can get away with in TOTK in his imaginary world

It might be useless because these games are so trivial at the end of the day but it is factually disruptive to the flow of combat, which defeats the point of being real time all the time

 

[CerebralTiger]

It might be useless because these games are so trivial at the end of the day but it is factually disruptive to the flow of combat, which defeats the point of being real time all the time

Thanks for exposing your clear lack of understanding of what those abilities in the radial menu actually do, since you think all of them disrupt the flow of combat

Now let's have a look at them one by one:

1. Amiibo: no one in their right mind will scan an amiibo during combat.

2. Map: no one in their right mind will bring up the map screen during combat.

3. Camera: taking pictures during combat is...entirely optional lol.

4. Ascend: mainly used during traversal in order to get to higher ground.

5. Autobuild: shortcut for building previously built constructions. Can be used to build a construction/contraption that can prove useful during combat

6. Fuse: for combining items. Often helpful with traversal and puzzle solving, but can also be used to combine items for use in combat

7. Recall: mainly used during traversal and puzzle solving to rewind platforms etc.

8. Ultrahand: for grabbing and moving around large objects. No major use case in combat.

So, there's 2 abilities that you may use during combat, and not even often? Disrupt this

The second menu you shared is for switching between different kinds of crafted shields. The same can be done for swords. This is perfectly fine, and one doesn't need to switch through them in combat, and there are shortcuts to switch between the ones you frequently use.

The menus don't disrupt the flow of combat at all, nor is Zelda's gameplay trivial. On the contrary, Zelda's emergent gameplay is a benchmark for other games to follow, as it leverages physics and providies the player with tools that encourage them to be inventive in their approach to both combat and puzzle solving. There's nothing quite like it on the market.

What's complex about button mashing brain dead enemies in these games where you have to unlock 1-hit death modes to add any degree of challenge to the game?

This gem of a sentence from your previous post needed special attention. Lmao @ button mashing and "any degree of challenge" hahaha. Why don't you try and find out on a platform where you can't use trainers to unlock achievements. GOW jaisi basic combat waali games highest difficulty par finish kar ke barda teer maar lia. Now let's see how you handle a real character action game

 

[Necrokiller]

Thanks for exposing your clear lack of understanding of what those abilities in the radial menu actually do

That wall of text wouldn't be required if you understand the fundamental difference between pausing the game to bring up the dial and choose abilities that can be used in combat, or you know, switching between them via dedicated buttons so it's "on the fly" and actually real time. Evidence is in the qualifiers CerebralTiger is coming up with to limit their use: "mainly", "no major use" "not often"

And notice how CerebralTiger just brushed off the shitty serial search menu as "perfectly fine". Your preference isn't the argument here, it's the fact that you have to constantly stop mid combat to navigate through the options

This gem of a sentence from your previous post needed special attention. Lmao @ button mashing and "any degree of challenge" hahaha. Why don't you try and find out on a platform where you can't use trainers to unlock achievements.

What does the platform's ability to use trainers have anything to do with how boring and button mashing the combat is? Typical CerebralTiger imagining scenarios in his head

 

[CerebralTiger]

That wall of text wouldn't be required if you understand the fundamental difference between pausing the game to bring up the dial and choose abilities that can be used in combat

Only 2 of them have a use-case for combat, and not frequently. There's no scenario where you're frequently bringing up the radial menu during combat to build or fuse items. Wall of text ke baad bhi samajh nahi ayi. Expected tho

And notice how CerebralTiger just brushed off the shitty serial search menu as "perfectly fine". Your preference isn't the argument here, it's the fact that you have to constantly stop mid combat to navigate through the options

Changing equipment in every single game that allows you to do so requires you to pause/bring up the menu screen. Hence, "perfectly fine". TOTK offers shortcuts to switch between frequently used gear, which makes the menu's usage quite rare, and certainly even less so during combat.

What does the platform's ability to use trainers have anything to do with how boring and button mashing the combat is? Typical CerebralTiger imagining scenarios in his head

If its a button masher, surely you will tackle the "brain-dead" AI in Hell and Hell mode and finish it with ease

 

[Necrokiller]

Only 2 of them have a use-case for combat, and not frequently. There's no scenario where you're frequently bringing up the radial menu during combat to build or fuse items. Wall of text ke baad bhi samajh nahi ayi. Expected tho

Just the fact that they can be used in combat means that you will have to bring up the radial menu and pause the game. How often you use that is up to you. Doesn't change the fact that it will disrupt the flow of the combat. If those abilities could be used without the need for a menu and selecting them manually then yeah it would be real time and on the fly. But it isn't hence disruptive.

Changing equipment in every single game that allows you to do so requires you to pause/bring up the menu screen. Hence, "perfectly fine".

Not really. Alot of shooters give you the option to change ammo and grenades type without going into menus. But more importantly, the whole point is the limitation of the real time combat compared to turn based and the limitations it puts on the available options in real time. Games work around that by having to use menus and shortcuts. There is a reason that quick switching or ability mapping on the gamepad is limited to four options. Anything more would require the use of menus. This inherently puts a limitation on the amount of options unless you resort to real time with pause or turn based where you can take your time and choose between many more options at the expense of the combat always being real time. That's a trade off the game designers make and what works for their game and therefore BG3 is able to provide unparalleled level of complexity and freedom because it is not limited to "frequently used options". It also allows for similar levels of freedom for your party members and enemies you encounter also have a huge set of options to use against you. If it makes you feel better, like I said in another thread, BoTW/ToTK functions more like real-time w/pause if you want to be able to use all the options it provides you

If CerebralTiger designed snooker there would be no cue balls and both players would be free to strike any ball any time all the time

If its a button masher, surely you will tackle the "brain-dead" AI in Hell and Hell mode and finish it with ease

I mean I would but I find the combat and the game design itself is boring. I just end up throwing up and deleting the games. There is a reason I would pick any From Software game over these brain dead character action games that are outdated in game design. Would CerebralTiger argue that Elden Ring has a better, more complex combat system than Bayonetta games? Probably not. But will he argue that Elden Ring is just the better game between the two? One can hope that he will

 

[Radical]

Wow nice combos! How about we go one on one in Tekken 8 and Chess online and settle who has a better understanding of both actual combat and faux simulation. Bear made the tiger afraid. I am so getting owned

Open challenge, Neko-chan!

Accept ker.

 

[CerebralTiger]

Just the fact that they can be used in combat means that you will have to bring up the radial menu and pause the game.

Why would you "have" to bring the radial menu up when most of the options it offfers aren't even useful in combat? If you're scanning amiibos, taking screenshots, bringing up the map screen, or using abilties during combat that aid with traversal, that's on you. Learn to play the game

Not really. Alot of shooters give you the option to change ammo and grenades type without going into menus. But more importantly, the whole point is the limitation of the real time combat compared to turn based and the limitations it puts on the available options in real time. Games work around that by having to use menus and shortcuts. There is a reason that quick switching or ability mapping on the gamepad is limited to four options. Anything more would require the use of menus. This inherently puts a limitation on the amount of options unless you resort to real time with pause or turn based where you can take your time and choose between many more options at the expense of the combat always being real time.

The quick menu for switching between gear or the radial menu for, say, building a construction in Zelda could've easily been done without any accompanying slow-down or pause. It's just there to make the game more accessible to a wider audience.

In a multiplayer game with these kind of options in real-time combat, it's not even possible to pause at any given instance. Your whole wall of text falls flat with the mention of just one game: Fortnite

That's a trade off the game designers make and what works for their game and therefore BG3 is able to provide unparalleled level of complexity and freedom because it is not limited to "frequently used options".

BG3's so-called complexity in combat comes from a large set of options for the player and NPCs to use with pre-defined outcomes. There is zero freedom here, as you're doing everything in accordance with what the developer has afforded you. Even when it comes to crafting, you're only gaining items/weapons from a pre-defined list.

On the other hand, the systems and tools available to the player in TOTK give the game a level of complexity and freedom in gameplay that no existing game comes close to. There are constructions players have built and used in combat in ways that not even the devs had anticipated. That is real freedom. A game that glues your character to a position until their next turn offers anything but freedom.

 

[Necrokiller]

Open challenge, Neko-chan!

Accept ker.

I challenge him back. I just don't play these games online. Locally, open challenge accepted. Heck, I'll kick his ass with a Steam Controller even, don't even need to use a dpad

 

[Necrokiller]

Why would you "have" to bring the radial menu up when most of the options it offfers aren't even useful in combat?

For the options that CAN be used in combat, but are only accessible via radial menu. Don't try to hide behind "most" or "more often" now. Those may be your preferences but aren't the facts.

In a multiplayer game with these kind of options in real-time combat, it's not even possible to pause at any given instance. Your whole wall of text falls flat with the mention of just one game: Fortnite

"these kind of options" Hahahahahahahha imagine comparing a casual ass Fortnite to BG3

BG3's so-called complexity in combat comes from a large set of options for the player and NPCs to use with pre-defined outcomes. There is zero freedom here, as you're doing everything in accordance with what the developer has afforded you. Even when it comes to crafting, you're only gaining items/weapons from a pre-defined list.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

Pre-defined outcomes.

Zero freedom.

Hahahhahahahahahahaha.

How can the outcomes be pre-defined when the actions are based on dice rolls? Do you realize how fucking stupid you sound right now?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1687182505307418624

Imagine thinking this was pre-defined, and was possible with "zero freedom" and developers intended it. LMAOOO

Baldur's Gate 3 has surpassed the level of emergent gameplay and freedom Lulz of the Kingdom can only hope to offer a fraction of due to its real-time with pause nature

 

[CerebralTiger]

I just don't play these games online.

But why?

For the options that CAN be used in combat, but are only accessible via radial menu. Don't try to hide behind "most" or "more often" now. Those may be your preferences but aren't the facts.

There are just 2 options that can be used in combat, and even those are used sparingly. How about you don't try to pass the radial menu as integral to combat when it isn't.

"these kind of options" Hahahahahahahha imagine comparing a casual ass Fortnite to BG3

I'm talking about Fortnite's building options being similar to the ones in TOTK. I know reading comprehension isn't your strongest suit, but lol. There are no pauses or slowdowns when using menus to build structures.

And LMAO @ "casual ass Fortnite" which so happens to be one of the most popular multiplayer shooter, and is also played competitively.

How can the outcomes be pre-defined when the actions are based on dice rolls?

I'm not talking about the outcome of battles. I'm talking about the list of options/actions available to the player in BG3. You aren't coming up with any new attack or spell that isn't already in the backend pool of actions, nor can you craft an item that isn't already present in the backend list of craftable items. These are linear systems that offer no room for being inventive. It's not emergent gameplay, and, therefore, this is not freedom. Everything you can do is pre-defined.

 

[Necrokiller]

But why?

Most fun in local Co op. Always was, always will be

And LMAO @ "casual ass Fortnite" which so happens to be one of the most popular multiplayer shooter, and is also played competitively.

So CerebralTiger measures complexity and freedom based on "most played" statistics?

I'm not talking about the outcome of battles. I'm talking about the list of options/actions available to the player in BG3. You aren't coming up with any new attack or spell that isn't already in the backend pool of actions, nor can you craft an item that isn't already present in the backend list of craftable items. These are linear systems that offer no room for being inventive. It's not emergent gameplay, and, therefore, this is not freedom. Everything you can do is pre-defined.

LMAOOOO by that logic whatever a player does is predefined by what tools the developers gives in the game. Whatever "emergent" things players are doing in ToTK are governed by the rules the developers allows. Its all built into the game intentionally governed by a pre defined set of rules

 

[CerebralTiger]

Most fun in local Co op. Always was, always will be

Chalo Tekken 8 locally khel lena. No harm in playing the evergreen turn-based 'masterpiece' known as Chess online tho right?

So CerebralTiger measures complexity and freedom based on "most played" statistics?

No, I judge popularity based on most played stats. Clearly it isn't just a "casual ass" game tho.

LMAOOOO by that logic whatever a player does is predefined by what tools the developers gives in the game. Whatever "emergent" things players are doing in ToTK are governed by the rules the developers allows

The big distinction here is that TOTK, Minecraft, and Fortnite's systems have the kind of granularity that offers freedom and makes way for creativity. Players are given the building blocks to make anything they want and use it however they want. Heck, someone even made an Armored Core

 

[Necrokiller]

Chalo Tekken 8 locally khel lena. No harm in playing the evergreen turn-based 'masterpiece' known as Chess online tho right?

Nah, poker , chess , snooker, fighting games all best aamne saamne. Esp challenge matches. I'm old school like that

No, I judge popularity based on most played stats

Then the stats can't account for complexity and hence are irrelevant here.

The big distinction here is that TOTK, Minecraft, and Fortnite's systems offer the kind of granularity that offers freedom and makes way for creativity. Players are given the building blocks to make anything they want. Heck, someone even made an Armored Core

Not "anything". By your logic, only what the predefined tools the developers have given them allows them to make within the rules laid out by them

 

[CerebralTiger]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1687182505307418624

This is cool. Now show me a list of other creative stuff that players can do in BG3, and I'll agree that it gives players at least some creative freedom

Not "anything". By your logic, only what the predefined tools the developers have given them allows them to make within the rules laid out by them

Can you make anything if you have enough pieces of Lego? If the answer is yes, then it is also true for TOTK, Minecraft, and Fortnite

 

[Necrokiller]

This is cool. Now show me a list of other creative stuff that players can do in BG3, and I'll agree that it gives players at least some creative freedom

Imagine giving your opinion that level of importance. Pehle fundamentals to samajh lo, that you still haven't corrected in the earlier post. Baaki Metacritic has you covered with links to all reviews. Don't be afraid to use it in BG3's case

Can you make anything if you have enough pieces of Lego? If the answer is yes, then it is also true for TOTK, Minecraft, and Fortnite

Depends on the types of pre defined legos. Can you make a basic, perfect circle without curved Legos? Only if the developer put it there