Are we defending Islam?

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criticalerror

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Dec 17, 2010
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So its okay to kill and condemn homosexual people? Why? Doesn’t Islam teach you to love every human being. Its okay to pick on and condemn them?


Since God is omnipotent, he should have realized at some point that homosexual people would pop up. So he voluntarily will condemn them even if he claims to have a heart as big as 70 mothers.
There is plenty of material on why it is such a great sin. You can read that yourself. My argument on homosexuality was to highlight reasons behind any law in Islam. The topic of discussion is terrorism in Islam.

If you believe homosexuality a recent phenomena that just "popped up", you have never read the Quran. The people of Lot. Read about them. Also what the Lord says about them. You will have your answer to why.

Sent From my Xperia Z2 D6503
 

crysis2

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2008
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we cant defend islam anymore because we have become slaves of our nafs
we cant fight against our enemies
we are not prepared to compete them on any level.
N.W.O is all on our nerves.

we cant live without electricity,wifi,gsm,tv
Tasty Foods.

can we?

Our media which is controlled by jews showing us vulgarity
half naked girls are hugging and kissing males
freely which is supported by many of us in the name of freedom of act and speech



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

AbbY

Administrator
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Nov 20, 2008
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we cant defend islam anymore because we have become slaves of our nafs
we cant fight against our enemies
we are not prepared to compete them on any level.
N.W.O is all on our nerves.

we cant live without electricity,wifi,gsm,tv
Tasty Foods.

can we?

Our media which is controlled by jews showing us vulgarity
half naked girls are hugging and kissing males
freely which is supported by many of us in the name of freedom of act and speech



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
What the actual flip? What on earth does all that have to do with terrorism and us doing our part? I really am very curious now.


Yes. If you commit homosexuality you are not a Muslim according to Islam.


Sent from my Infinix-X600-LTE using Tapatalk
Again. What has this to do with the topic. I refer you back to this. Now if I delete posts because they're not even remotely on-topic, people will say that 'we're being targetting', 'idher toh censorship kay baghair bol bhi nahi saktay', 'I'm not allowed to reply so no point in quoting me'.

You guys tell me. Is THIS kind of pointless crosstalk and fatwagiri on topic.

Y'all are lucky I'm very lenient with the ban hammer. :crazy:
 

XxRebellionxX

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Mar 10, 2010
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There is plenty of material on why it is such a great sin. You can read that yourself. My argument on homosexuality was to highlight reasons behind any law in Islam. The topic of discussion is terrorism in Islam.

If you believe homosexuality a recent phenomena that just "popped up", you have never read the Quran. The people of Lot. Read about them. Also what the Lord says about them. You will have your answer to why.

Sent From my Xperia Z2 D6503
I know it's not a recent phenomena. The thing is, killing someone based on their sexuality is borderline wrong as shit. Where's the peace in that?
 

Arkonov

I'm already a demon
Apr 14, 2011
2,727
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Wew. Fatwas are already being issued.

I love the sodom & gomorrah story, because apparently you're a rapist and crazy person if you're gay.
 

Mephisto

The Prime Evil
Jun 4, 2008
628
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@Arkonov @XxRebellionxX


Homosexuality is frowned upon in Islam. It doesn't mean you will be killed but God is displeased with it. And there is a reason for that, if people adopt homosexuality then reproduction will drop and hence it will lead to extinction of human race. I can link you to clerics who believe that killing gays is wrong, shoot me a PM if you are interested - I'll search for links on this topic :p

Believe me, if people actually believed that gays need to be killed then Saudi Arabia will have half the population it does now :D. And also note, Islam is not the only religion that is displeased with homosexuality, Christianity is on the same boat.


Staying on topic - if you feel that you can not standup for a religion because it does not accept your way of life then by all means that's your decision. I just feel one should put aside their personal feelings and support a greater cause. We need to speak up against Daesh's use of Islam as an excuse to kill innocent people.
 
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mafiadog

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Feb 21, 2008
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Again someone trying to take the discussion onto if God knew. Yes God knew , this is the trial. And guess what more ? Fate has already been decided , the ink is dry , what has already been written will come to be. Heaven hell all decided , another point you guys can take up to your fellow Islam haters . your criticism will not move our heart even an inch so keep it to yourself. Yo god insults are personal insults So better watch out.

As for sexuality lgbt ho ya nahi ye pakgamers he pak gay mar. We already condemn you ! Jk . who cares if you are gay , no one can decide on you but if caught in the act then either public will kill you or the government will apply a punishment.

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EternalBlizzard

Lazy guy :s
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Oct 29, 2011
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I respect your opinions, but killing in the name of religion isn't really the answer. We should condemn this evil act, yet here we are looking the other way. Its not the answer mate.

Let me pitch in with something else, just the other day I read a chain message shared by some friends and cousins which deeply saddened me. These 'educated' muslims condemning a certain sect about their teachings and so. Apparently, it was all a fabrication and there was nothing of the sort after I did my research. But I'm pretty sure it was enough to ignite idiots to commit hate crime, because that was what a good muslim was supposed to do. Really?
Didn't get what part of my reply was looking the other way? I just said that people killing in the name of Islam aren't muslims in the first place, it's all being done to frame Islam. That's one possibility i shared and what i think is going on.

A thread about defending Islam on a gaming website who's icon is a young 'devil' being discussed by gamers who play games like Devil May Cry, Dragon's Age, Witcher etc.

Makes you wonder, 'Is This For Real'??
If you ask me i'd say it's no different than threads on Islamic websites where everybody seems to be "shariif" but still does the same things as us in real life


And for the love of GOD, stop arguing on Islamic teachings. The thread was to determine ways we could stand up and defend islam not attack it ourselves. If you don't want to defend it or are against the way it is now then i don't think it's the right thread for you to talk about your opinions to reform Islam.
 
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Benighted

Night is the new day
May 28, 2009
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Well, i tried to stay away from this discussion but i see some guys relate terrorism to Muslims only and then i remember a factual study, please check here:

Muslims Are Not Terrorists: A Factual Look at Terrorism and Islam

Also i recommend following links in this article for actual publications/references.
I see people are still having a hard time following my argument (my own failure, no doubt). That link makes the same mistake that most Muslims make when thinking about the western fear of Islam. I will try, one more time, to make all that I have been trying to say in this thread, as clear as possible.

What I Said:

1) Acts of terrorism committed by Muslims are associated with Islam, as a faith and as an ideology. The terrorists themselves happily make that association.

2) A great number (this does not mean ALL) of religious leaders do not condemn these acts. (I will talk more about this later in this post).

3) Jewish/Christian/non-Muslim terrorists, most of the time, do not credit their acts of terrorism to their faith. They do not claim to be inspired by their religious beliefs for their actions. They are just terrorists who happen to belong to particular non-Islamic faith (they need not even be practising Jews/Christians/whatever). This is the most important point that nobody seems to appreciate here. It explains Islamophobia and why, in the minds of non-Muslims, the acts of Muslim-terrorists leads back to their faith and why it doesn't happen for terrorists of other faiths. It explains why people react differently to Islamic-terrorism more than suppositions of prejudice/bias can explain.

You don't have to renounce your faith in Islam to accept this clear as day fact. It doesn't hurt to be able to understand causes of human behavior/reactions on a deeper level. I urge you to give this point at least a little bit of honest thought.

If you are thinking about answering me with examples of terrorism inspired by non-Islamic religions, do not bother. I will be the first to mention, as a small example, that has been some Christianity-inspired terrorism as well. The bombings of abortion clinics comes immediately to my mind. But I hope there's no need for me to argue, how these individual acts of occasional terrorism are dwarfed in scope compared to Islamic militancy, which consists of numerous groups whose sole purpose is terrorism. I hope you will appreciate the difference.

Onto things I didn't say.

What I Didn't Say:

1) All Muslims are terrorists.
2) No Muslim condemns Daesh/ISIS. In fact, I admit that the vast majority of Muslims are anti-ISIS. My arguments in this thread haven't been concerned with IS in particular. I have only addressed the general issue of rising frequency of Islam-inspired violence, terrorism and the sympathizers.

Even though, ISIS is hated by most Muslims, the reason why that is true is actually sad. That reason being, IS targets Muslims as well. This is the simple reason why a much greater number of Muslims did not condemn 9/11, but do condemn IS.
 
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mafiadog

Game trader
Feb 21, 2008
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I see people are still having a hard time following my argument (my own failure, no doubt). That link makes the same mistake that most Muslims make when thinking about the western fear of Islam. I will try, one more time, to make all that I have been trying to say in this thread, as clear as possible.

What I Said:

1) Acts of terrorism committed by Muslims are associated with Islam, as a faith and as an ideology. The terrorists themselves happily make that association.

2) A great number (this does not mean ALL) of religious leaders do not condemn these acts. (I will talk more about this later in this post).

3) Jewish/Christian/non-Muslim terrorists, most of the time, do not credit their acts of terrorism to their faith. They do not claim to be inspired by their religious beliefs for their actions. They are just terrorists who happen to belong to particular non-Islamic faith (they need not even be practising Jews/Christians/whatever). This is the most important point that nobody seems to appreciate here. It explains Islamophobia and why, in the minds of non-Muslims, the acts of Muslim-terrorists leads back to their faith and why it doesn't happen for terrorists of other faiths. It explains why people react differently to Islamic-terrorism more than suppositions of prejudice/bias can explain.

You don't have to renounce your faith in Islam to accept this clear as day fact. It doesn't hurt to be able to understand causes of human behavior/reactions on a deeper level. I urge you to give this point at least a little bit of honest thought.

If you are thinking about answering me with examples of terrorism inspired by non-Islamic religions, do not bother. I will be the first to mention, as a small example, that has been some Christianity-inspired terrorism as well. The bombings of abortion clinics comes immediately to my mind. But I hope there's no need for me to argue, how these individual acts of occasional terrorism are dwarfed in scope compared to Islamic militancy, which consists of numerous groups whose sole purpose is terrorism. I hope you will appreciate the difference.

Onto things I didn't say.

What I Didn't Say:

1) All Muslims are terrorists.
2) No Muslim condemns Daesh/ISIS. In fact, I admit that the vast majority of Muslims are anti-ISIS. My arguments in this thread haven't been concerned with IS in particular. I have only addressed the general issue of rising frequency of Islam-inspired violence, terrorism and the sympathizers.

Even though, ISIS is hated by most Muslims, the reason why that is true is actually sad. That reason being, IS targets Muslims as well. This is the simple reason why a much greater number of Muslims did not condemn 9/11, but do condemn IS.
The last para is interesting. That is a good analysis , that majority condemn Isis but not 9/11 just because Isis targets Muslims. Just to let you know , the inside circle did condemn 9/11 and the killings of the innocent. That Osama was vicious , brutal and impatient. Overtime he grew and during his last stages he did not only condemn killings of innocents but also wrote widely to organizations like al-qaeda in the Arabian peninsula , ttp and groups in Africa to stop shedding innocent blood (some of these letters are available and declassified by the US , found during abottabad compound raid). Thus , yes some Muslims did condemn 9/11 and overtime grew to condemn even more. 9/11 was a response to barbaric attacks against Muslims so what Osama justified it with so rather than it being solely terrorism it was qisas .

Was charlie hebdo killings terrorism ? We can start by discussing that.

Sent from my 1+X
 

Benighted

Night is the new day
May 28, 2009
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The last para is interesting. That is a good analysis , that majority condemn Isis but not 9/11 just because Isis targets Muslims. Just to let you know , the inside circle did condemn 9/11 and the killings of the innocent. That Osama was vicious , brutal and impatient. Overtime he grew and during his last stages he did not only condemn killings of innocents but also wrote widely to organizations like al-qaeda in the Arabian peninsula , ttp and groups in Africa to stop shedding innocent blood (some of these letters are available and declassified by the US , found during abottabad compound raid). Thus , yes some Muslims did condemn 9/11 and overtime grew to condemn even more. 9/11 was a response to barbaric attacks against Muslims so what Osama justified it with so rather than it being solely terrorism it was qisas .

Was charlie hebdo killings terrorism ? We can start by discussing that.

Sent from my 1+X
Osama Bin Laden had a change of heart? What..

Where can we find these letters?
 

UnStable

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Well, I was having a look at this thread from a couple of days. I just had a question. Do we really need to "Defend" Islam? Won't being a true Muslim who follows each and every guideline of Islam enough? That's what our Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Did, and the fact is he never had to "Defend" Islam, He just kept being a true Muslim, Spreading Peace And love. Well if we all also do the same, There will be NO need to "Defend" Islam, As the whole world will know what Islam really is. If evil peoples can show Islam as a bad religion by doing Bad deeds, Why can't we Muslims show each and every person on earth what Islam really is and what it teaches us by doing good deeds, Spreading peace and love.
 

HAMMER of THOR

الله اکب
Nov 17, 2007
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Well, I was having a look at this thread from a couple of days. I just had a question. Do we really need to "Defend" Islam? Won't being a true Muslim who follows each and every guideline of Islam enough? That's what our Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Did, and the fact is he never had to "Defend" Islam, He just kept being a true Muslim, Spreading Peace And love. Well if we all also do the same, There will be NO need to "Defend" Islam, As the whole world will know what Islam really is. If evil peoples can show Islam as a bad religion by doing Bad deeds, Why can't we Muslims show each and every person on earth what Islam really is and what it teaches us by doing good deeds, Spreading peace and love.
unfortunately people judge the message by the observing the stupid followers.. and muslims are indeed naive, stupid, intolerant, misguided, hateful and know jack shit about islam... so fitna/chaos ensues... people will follow an ideology, without reading the quran first... common sense is the least common of senses
 

Shyber

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Well, I was having a look at this thread from a couple of days. I just had a question. Do we really need to "Defend" Islam? Won't being a true Muslim who follows each and every guideline of Islam enough? That's what our Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Did, and the fact is he never had to "Defend" Islam, He just kept being a true Muslim, Spreading Peace And love. Well if we all also do the same, There will be NO need to "Defend" Islam, As the whole world will know what Islam really is. If evil peoples can show Islam as a bad religion by doing Bad deeds, Why can't we Muslims show each and every person on earth what Islam really is and what it teaches us by doing good deeds, Spreading peace and love.
Nice thought. "Defend your Imaan" should be the way to go. Islam needs no defending.

I also decided to drop my $0.02 on the homosexuality matter. I'm no qualified expert on the teachings of Islam to discuss a 'masla' and draw rulings but I had to think about this topic because when you live in a Western country and you have a beard and your outlook shouts "I'm a Muslim" and when a non-Muslim comes and asks you question, how do you answer? I usually start off my answer with the same disclaimer, "My knowledge is not comprehensive but I know some key principles..."

So all Muslims start it off with the Kalma, proclaiming Allah as the one and only worthy of our prayers and Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) as the last of Allah's prophets.

The لا إله إلا الله is a case study in itself. There is no God but Allah is a rough translation in English. When we say we're Muslim, the one thing we are absolutely claiming irrespective of any sub belief is the Allah is the only one and true God worthy of being a called with the thousands of Godly qualities hinted in the Quran most of which the human brain and knowledge still can't comprehend. So when we say "I'm a Muslim", we believe that Allah is present, Allah is aware of our thoughts, our feelings, our belief, our nafs, our niyyah, our everything, our context, our society, the level of challenges and how it scales based on our ability. (Eating Halal food can be really easy for someone and ultimately difficult for the other depending on their level of self control, location, availability, affordability, hunger level, etc etc).

Based on how much we strive to please Allah and the effort it requires on our part, the rewards scale. Remember, Allah isn't simply Just, he's the MOST MERCIFUL. Remember the story of a big sinner who made a thirsty dog drink before he/she died and got forgiven for ALL the sins he/she did during his/her lifetime? Redeemed by a single act of goodness.

Based on this thought, [MENTION=33834]Arkonov[/MENTION], I believe your sexuality is a matter between you and Allah. Being a Muslim, you believe in the absoluteness of Allah's omnipresence all knowing existence. You believe that Allah's knows how He made you, how he wired you and you believe that even if Allah has declared it as a huge Sin, you have no control over it and all you can do is ask forgiveness. You are confident that you absolutely know that's how you're wired and Allah being your Creator knows absolutely well how he created you and knows how challenging it is for you to overcome it. May be even impossible. So if Allah knows you have no control over it, you should feel reasonably confident that Allah might forgive you?

That's what Allah wants from all of us. Optimism, but fear. He can forgive you. But what if he doesn't? Do we do nearly enough? We single out the major sins like drinking, gambling, sex, etc. because of course, they're the "Gunah-e-Kabeerah" and they leave a permanent mark on your "hereafter CV" but Allah CAN forgive for that. But what about the sins we constantly do, what about us hurting others? What about backbiting?

Since there's no established court of Shariah, the best one can do is consult someone we willingly choose as our religious 'go to' person. An Ameer. I mean when we get sick we go to a doctor, the more complicated the scenario, the better doctor and institution we seek out. There are different schools of thoughts in medicine, we ask for referrals and eventually decide upon a doctor before commencing the treatment. Similarly when we're looking for a lawyer to sort out a dispute, or an accountant to file our tax returns or even a mechanic to fix our car - we do a little research. We google some stuff online for our own knowledge, then we seek out the best experts and then take our car to them. We cross question their diagnosis and establish a trust relation with them. This is exactly how it should be with consulting an aalim of a deen. You do your own research, you find the best recommended aalim/mufti and you meet and question them. If they satisfy you, well and good you establish a trust relation with him. No? We continue our hunt.

This is exactly how our queries and problems related to Islam/Imaan should be addressed. Either we do the 4-7 year BS/MS and earn the qualifications to become a Doctor ourselves, or we do the best to find the best Doctor. Don't we hear stories about doctors and scams and mis-treatments and what not? Do we treat ALL Doctors generally kay yaar "Doctor to hotay hi aisay hain" just like we do with "Yaar maulvis to hotay hi aisey hain". We don't. It might take a while to find the right mufti who you can have a trust relationship with but once you do, don't let go. That's the whole concept of "ba'et".

By standard definition, Homosexuality is a huge sin by Islamic teachings no matter how we twist it. If there was Caliphate and proper Shariah Court, there may be penalties. On a State level, it can never be legitimized. That's the general ruling. Now what to do if you're homosexual but you want to be a Muslim. Can there be a homosexual Muslim? Refer to my answer above. In His judgement, Allah considers context. So it's not hopeless. But a homosexual won't be able to thrive 100% in a perfect Islamic society, just like someone who has a taste for fine drinking like Wine and Beer. Just like a naturist/nudist can't thrive in New York city or where public nudity is a crime with fines and jail time. There's a social construct and then there's individualism.

In the end, it's always between Allah and the individual. He can forgive us for all sins, may be even the greater sins. However, if we violate anyone's right, we first have to seek forgiveness from that individual first.

Bah, too much text. Just a brain dump. Sorry if I hurt any feelings or said anything politically incorrect, I meant no dis-respect. And may Allah forgive me for my mistakes and correct my thoughts if they're deviant from the Quran and Sunnah.
 

Arkonov

I'm already a demon
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[MENTION=1054]Shyber[/MENTION] - I like what you're getting at, but I've seen a lot of people use that logic of forgiveness to justify a lot of things they do. Since Allah's just going to forgive you if you repent enough, who cares?
 
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