Would you let your GF wear anything she wants? Your wife?

ASKnASK said:

So whoever says anything against our dear religion is to be type-casted as the "90210 generation"? You're exactly what people hate about muslims. The world isn't binary. There aren't just ones and zeroes. There isn't just the chaste and the 90210 generation.

I still stick with my original statement. Islamic law or 'way of life' as you say can't be followed in its entirety anymore. I'm not a religious scholar or anything but I know enough to come to this conclusion.

The OP asked a simple question. He didn't say please tell me what my religion says because let's be honest.. that part is pretty clear to everyone. Drape the women and let the men run around half naked

Click to expand...

No , anyone that blindly follows western customs without rhyme or reason is what i referred to as 90210 generation. I see the current crop of teenagers openly criticising islam without a shred of knowledge on the subject. You dont need to be a scholar to understand the ayat i posted . This is a common misconception. Its plain english.
You missed the point of my entire post . If one doesnt want to follow islamic laws it is very easy to call them difficult to follow. Spare me the lecture on ones and zeroes. Black and whites and grays. Clichèd arguments that everyone not wanting to follow Islam gives. I presented what islam says on the matter. Whether you accept it or follow it is entirely up to you. I m not here to teach you something you should ve learnt while growing up.



Sent from my LG-E975

I see no reason to incorporate one point of view in this thread and disallow the other. Seeing as how the OP wasn't explicit in this case.

I'm going a bit off-topic here and can't help but notice this phrase being thrown around a lot these days, "Religion is a personal matter between an individual and God". If we take this phrase to be true, it renders the entire practice of Allah sending Messengers and Prophets to be useless and in vain.

Persuasion is the way to go instead of coercion. Could be applied to all facets of life.

Ottoman said:

I see no reason to incorporate one point of view in this thread and disallow the other. Seeing as how the OP wasn't explicit in this case.

I'm going a bit off-topic here and can't help but notice this phrase being thrown around a lot these days, "Religion is a personal matter between an individual and God". If we take this phrase to be true, it renders the entire practice of Allah sending Messengers and Prophets to be useless and in vain.

Persuasion is the way to go instead of coercion. Could be applied to all facets of life.

Click to expand...

There is a difference between Preaching Islam and forcing Islam

U can bring in references from Quran and Hadith about Hijab for women and preach them
Whether the target audience follows them or not is a "Personal matter between individual and God"

hasanJ said:

There is a difference between Preaching Islam and forcing Islam

U can bring in references from Quran and Hadith about Hijab for women and preach them
Whether the target audience follows them or not is a "Personal matter between individual and God"

Click to expand...

That's your way of looking at it but a good portion doesn't share your views. My target audience were people who even outright refuse persuasive techniques.

Ottoman said:

That's your way of looking at it but a good portion doesn't share your views. My target audience were people who even outright refuse persuasive techniques.

Click to expand...

Define persuasive techniques?

Ottoman said:

"Religion is a personal matter between an individual and God". If we take this phrase to be true, it renders the entire practice of Allah sending Messengers and Prophets to be useless and in vain.

Click to expand...

This phrase is thrown a lot around because "lets force religion" tune is being thrown around as well. And by the way you have to show how it renders the practice of sending messengers useless. It is a non-sequitur.

hasanJ said:

Define persuasive techniques?

Click to expand...

The act of preaching is a persuasive technique. Forcing is an act of coercion which I already mentioned earlier.

neox3d said:

This phrase is thrown a lot around because "lets force religion" tune is being thrown around as well. And by the way you have to show how it renders the practice of sending messengers useless. It is a non-sequitur.

Click to expand...

No one's forcing you in this thread so bringing that phrase here seems irrelevant. A lot of the replies here have referenced the Quran and Hadith and some have employed logic in order to get the point across, in a respectful manner.
So where did this "forcing" aspect come in?

Regarding the second part of your post, I was ,specifically, addressing a portion of the society that refuses to hear. Coercing them is a long way off. Hence the example I provided.

Ottoman said:

The act of preaching is a persuasive technique. Forcing is an act of coercion which I already mentioned earlier.

Click to expand...

I see
U also have to take into account that the target audience of the preaching is already aware of what it says in Religion

For example we have this guy [MENTION=26485]criticalerror[/MENTION] quoting Ayat from Quran believing firmly that the target audience is unaware of what Religion says about the issue

Guys like him dont realize that the target might have equal if not more information about the topic in light of religion and are simply not following it for whatever personal reasons hence the reasoning "Personal matter between God and Religion"

neox3d said:

@Zeus MK
Agar dil saaf ho to nangi larki pe bhi hath nahi dalo gey ap. So this kind of absurd hypothetical is useless in this argument for a comparison unless you think that poeple should be decent on the outside, regardless of what they feel inside. Agar ankh kharab ho na, tou banda har larki ko he Abuses will lead to bani nazar se dekhta hai cahahey wo hijab mei ho ya liberal dress mei.

Secondly: Hadith are NOT LAWS.

Thirdly: agar parda jism ka zaruri hai tou phir mardoun ko bhi karna chahiye warna larkiyan dekhien tou unka dimagh bhi tou Abuses will lead to bana ho sakta hai na...what do you say?

You see this type of tradition is good in a society where women have no voice, no one is bothered k larkay ko parda karna chahiye because no one is asking the girl if she feels lust for boy...only the girl is told to hijab because man is the one who is being addressed, in a male dominant culture. The thing is, today women have a voice. Agar ap unko dekh kar lust kar saktey ho, tou wo bhi kar sakti, agar unka pardah zaruri hai, tou phr larko ka bhi hona chaiye.

@criticalerror

With due respect, I have no problem with deen, sure go ahead and try to fullfill it as much as you can, just don't think its your job to ensure somoene's submission to religion. That is between God and them. Also let me say that the historical reason for why palestinian and middle-eastern women applied a purdah and covered themselves was because at that time some 1500-2000 years ago, all women kept it except prostitutes. The sign of the prostitute was that she would not cover herhead therefore people would know who she was and no one would be embarrased by asking out the wrong lady. So that is how they did business back then. That is why it was written that the girls wearing hijab would be "distinguised" and would "not be harrassed". That is no one would approach them mistaking them for a prostitute.

Today however, this is not the case anymore, we are not in 1500 years old middleeast. Today women without hijab are normal functioning poeple. Prostitutes and normal women are mixed, with and without hijab. Hijab is no more sign of a prostitute. So applying that koranic verse in today culture, is taking that verse totally out of its context and intended use by the AUTHOR, infact the practice is called proof reading and its not a very good practice, i.e taking koranic verses out of context.

I am not rooting for no pardah, just saying that:

1. Everyone makes their own spiritual choices and are themselves answerable for it.
2. It is not our job to bend someone to a rule.
3. Woman also have brains and eyes and equality of rights, respect them.
4. Proof reading the koranic verse without its context will result in a mistreated reading of the text.

Click to expand...

I ll try to be concise.
A. Preaching IS a religous duty. Imposing islam is not allowed by force but you must present islamic law as is. Only the govt can enforce shariah.
B. What you have stated as "context" is only one reason/angle for this ayat. Islam promotes decency . Women wearing indecent dresses get harrassed and oogled at more. That is a fact still evident today in our society as well as the west.
C. Hadith IS a vital part of Shariah. Many laws have been established through Hadith. Refrain from spreading misinformation. This is an impressionable crowd we are talking in
D. I have not proof read one ayah. Many of you will remember Surah e Al Ahzab being an islamyat chapter. The history of this ayat is rooted in an onservation from Hazrat Umar R.A . I ve studied the context. Islamic laws are applicable in all times/ages. To consider islam as not compatible with modern ages has no basis in logic. It is the fastest growing religion in the west as well. If it were incompatible this wouldnt be the case.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammed in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age."

George Bernard Shaw(an athiest).

Another 1500 years wont change the utility of islamic laws

1. Everyone makes their own spiritual choices and are themselves answerable for it.
- Yes but the fundamental of islam is " Preach what is good and stop from committing evil " . So you must atleast convey what islam says. Whether someone follows it is up to them.
2. It is not our job to bend someone to a rule.
- See above. I fail to see where i have bent anyone for anything. I ve stated the law. Whether you follow it or not is up to you.
3. Woman also have brains and eyes and equality of rights, respect them.
No one has doubted this. Islam is the Only religion that gave women rights. But a women has responsibilities as well, one of which is pardah, that too for her own good. If nowadays abaya and hijab have been given a bad name by some women , it is not a fault in islamic law but the women themselves.


Sent from my LG-E975

[MENTION=1283]hasanJ[/MENTION] That's the problem right there you know. We all think we know enough when we actually know very little. Delving deep into a subject never hurts, it only enlightens you more.

Ottoman said:

@hasanJ That's the problem right there you know. We all think we know enough when we actually know very little. Delving deep into a subject never hurts, it only enlightens you more.

Click to expand...

Yes i agree but keeping in view the subject at hand in light of verses from Quran references to Hadith about Women and Purdah in Islam, how deep are u supposed to go?

The "Hukum" is clear in this regard and a guy/girl chooses not to follow it for whatever personal reason
End of Story

Ottoman said:

The act of preaching is a persuasive technique. Forcing is an act of coercion which I already mentioned earlier.


No one's forcing you in this thread so bringing that phrase here seems irrelevant. A lot of the replies here have referenced the Quran and Hadith and some have employed logic in order to get the point across, in a respectful manner.
So where did this "forcing" aspect come in?

Regarding the second part of your post, I was ,specifically, addressing a portion of the society that refuses to hear. Coercing them is a long way off. Hence the example I provided.

Click to expand...

I think hijab is forced on alot of women in everyday society, which they quickly drop off as soon as their spouses and family is not with them, in public places. That is what I referred to.

The ones who refuse to hear should be left alone.

criticalerror said:

I ll try to be concise.
A. Preaching IS a religous duty. Imposing islam is not allowed by force but you must present islamic law as is. Only the govt can enforce shariah.
B. What you have stated as "context" is only one reason/angle for this ayat. Islam promotes decency . Women wearing indecent dresses get harrassed and oogled at more. That is a fact still evident today in our society as well as the west.
C. Hadith IS a vital part of Shariah. Many laws have been established through Hadith. Refrain from spreading misinformation. This is an impressionable crowd we are talking in
D. I have not proof read one ayah. Many of you will remember Surah e Al Ahzab being an islamyat chapter. The history of this ayat is rooted in an onservation from Hazrat Umar R.A . I ve studied the context. Islamic laws are applicable in all times/ages. To consider islam as not compatible with modern ages has no basis in logic. It is the fastest growing religion in the west as well. If it were incompatible this wouldnt be the case.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammed in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age."

George Bernard Shaw(an athiest).

Another 1500 years wont change the utility of islamic laws

1. Everyone makes their own spiritual choices and are themselves answerable for it.
- Yes but the fundamental of islam is " Preach what is good and stop from committing evil " . So you must atleast convey what islam says. Whether someone follows it is up to them.
2. It is not our job to bend someone to a rule.
- See above. I fail to see where i have bent anyone for anything. I ve stated the law. Whether you follow it or not is up to you.
3. Woman also have brains and eyes and equality of rights, respect them.
No one has doubted this. Islam is the Only religion that gave women rights. But a women has responsibilities as well, one of which is pardah, that too for her own good. If nowadays abaya and hijab have been given a bad name by some women , it is not a fault in islamic law but the women themselves.


Sent from my LG-E975

Click to expand...

My answers repectively

A. Religious duty of whom? who is qualified to do that? For me the person preaching should be a model himself foremost.
B. What I have stated, is the original angle and is historically accurate. Application for today is another topic but we must not use the verse as is then because we know circumstances have changed.
C. I hope you can see, that saying "Hadith are not laws" is not misinformation. They are not laws, period. Many sharia laws base their authenticity in the hadith. That is the correct statement. And there is the difference, not all Hadith is applied, nor everyone agrees to each hadith, plenty of disagreement on that front and has been since ages in Islam.
D. Yes some Islamic laws are/should be applicable in modern times, some not.

While I have never seen a good source of the quote you mentioned of shaw so not sure if its authentic, here is one which is quite authentic of Shaw and what he held all his life:

"Religion is a great force — the only real motive force in the world; but what you fellows dont understand is that you must get at a man through his own religion and not through yours. Instead of facing that fact, you persist in trying to convert all men to your own little sect, so that you can use it against them afterwards. You are all missionaries and proselytizers trying to uproot the native religion from your neighbor's flowerbeds and plant your own in its place. You would rather let a child perish in ignorance than have it taught by a rival sectary. You can talk to me of the quintessential equality of coal merchants and British officers; and yet you cant see the quintessential equality of all the religions."

Click to expand...

And here is another which is an eyeopener about shaw:

"The apparent multiplicity of Gods is bewildering at the first glance; but you presently discover that they are all the same one God in different aspects and functions and even sexes. There is always one uttermost God who defies personification. This makes Hinduism the most tolerant religion in the world, because its one transcendent God includes all possible Gods… Hinduism is so elastic and so subtle that the profoundest Methodist and the crudest idolater are equally at home in it.
Islam is very different, being ferociously intolerant. What I may call Manifold Monotheism becomes in the minds of very simple folk an absurdly polytheistic idolatry, just as European peasants not only worship Saints and the Virgin as Gods, but will fight fanatically for their faith in the ugly little black doll who is the Virgin of their own Church against the black doll of the next village. When the Arabs had run this sort of idolatry to such extremes ... they did this without black dolls and worshipped any stone that looked funny, Mahomet rose up at the risk of his life and insulted the stones shockingly, declaring that there is only one God, Allah, the glorious, the great… And there was to be no nonsense about toleration. You accepted Allah or you had your throat cut by someone who did accept him, and who went to Paradise for having sent you to Hell. Mahomet was a great Protestant religious force, like George Fox or Wesley….
There is actually a great Hindu sect, the Jains, with Temples of amazing magnificence, which abolish God, not on materialist atheist considerations, but as unspeakable and unknowable, transcending all human comprehension."

Click to expand...

Letter to the Reverend Ensor Walters (1933), as quoted in Bernard Shaw : Collected Letters, 1926-1950 (1988) by Dan H. Laurence, p. 305

I don't think shaw is a very good source for praising Islam.

1. ofcourse and thats what I have been saying all along. Advise if someone does not listen leave them be, its between them and God.

3. No, the greeks also gave women rights. Islam gave rights to middle-eastern and Bedouin women, women who lived in a culture where daughters were discarded upon birth. So no, Islam was not the first religion to gave women rights, it was the first to give rights to middle-eastern women. The rest of the world is not among those.

hasanJ said:

There is a difference between Preaching Islam and forcing Islam

U can bring in references from Quran and Hadith about Hijab for women and preach them
Whether the target audience follows them or not is a "Personal matter between individual and God"

Click to expand...

in an islamic state you cannot just do that... you have to follow the law of the land which means cover yourself... but as pakistan is not an islamic state... it is between the person and Allah...

another religious topic,good chance to have a really good fight between u ppl

That is fine guys, I don't wanna fight. i think my position is quite clear and I think we are at an impasse. So no worries, have a good day.

Another thing is that the outside world's influence on the individual or a couple w.r.t clothing. Some women see that another woman dressed like this and she is not being criticized or something hence the influence to wear such type of clothing. Both men and women perceive each other and the world differently so it is really hard to know how an individual will react and what not.

ahhh, what just happened here, [MENTION=1283]hasanJ[/MENTION] kat lay yahan say couz I am about to start my personal way of tantrum to teach these brainless idiot apes.

thanks to our media for creating such fuss and now our generation know Islam as ferociously Intolerant religion, yeah they are right let their sisters. wifes and daughters go in tight pants and sleeveless cloths outside, let them be BOLD and let them become slaves of modernization, they are right there is no point to force them by will and there is no point to teach them what islam offers’ and if you don’t follow what will happen.

lets put islam a side, it will only put pressure on our temper and someone might start in desi way to communicate, since there is no consensus on a point to let ur wife wear anything ( I don’t give a shit about g/f its just ur brain infatuation toward sex) a simple question is how do you react when you see a lady with tight cloths on a street? I call them hololo bachi, some say maaal, some call them katooo some say … check ker khujli wala janwar, some yell chikna chamra (leather) and list goes on and on and on based on the locality. So why most people name them like this? And why do women has this urge to wear cloths like this? Have you seen a lady in proper hijab? To me they look so cute and adorable that sex germs never popup inside however for hololo bachiyan you do some working and try to find a spot you can watch that lady with your scanning machines installed in your eye’s. let me know if this doesn’t happen.

So now feel how about your daughter, wife or sister being examined that way? Yet you aint gona convince them isn’t it, couz you are liberal by thinking and think islam is an orthodox religion with zilch tolerance, Son Islam is the religion of peace and protection, we being man are narrated as protector/guardians of the family and are responsible for the people under our guardship, Allah subhanawatallah has his mysterious ways only known to him but we being human are bound to read / find and follow, if it has been said in Quran than it can not be denied or challenged unless non-muslim in question, if a women is told in Quran in simple words for idiots like me to understand in vers 33:59 “(O Prophet tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed)” than whats the point of argument, if you do it you are doing good and if you are not you will be asked for not doing it ( not for forcing it ). PERIOD.


ok tell me most of us works in organizations and almost every organization has 1-2 special cases like these where women try to exploit through their clothings, jestures and talks, do you like these girls/women at work? a respect factor? Be honest couz for me I pitty on their father, brother or husband to let them come in office that way, to me their mental status is just as same as many special people here.

Well I think I can write a book on this but fortunatly gotta work couz I already wasted much time explaining my point of view in this.
[MENTION=124622]neox3d[/MENTION]
let me enlighten you about Bernard that motherfucker was the one who started yelling about the extermination of jew’s in Poland when Hitler was on spree he was a Irish but moved to poland in jews community so don’t fuckin quote me about that maan ka k**s, and don’t get wasted in cyberspace just to put thumb on ur notes, if you really seek what you discussing than the best way is to read Quran with translation don’t even go for maulana or mufti.


and the last nail to the coffin ......Gherut isn’t habbit nor comes in with practice…. It rotates in blood
[MENTION=39471]Blastwave[/MENTION] send me some bloodpressure tabs b1tch.

lifeinabucket said:

Going by the religious minded sect in this thread, I am just lucky I haven't been labelled a Kafir yet, for advocating a question which according to some people is clearly against Islamic injunctions !

Click to expand...

nope you are wrong, no one has the right to claim about someone being Kafir, and about this topic dont feel it, this topic might have turned some people point of view unless brained washed with preconcieved ideology

lifeinabucket said:

Open to subjective analysis.

Where do you draw the line?

Do you have different sets of rules for girlfriends and wives?

Would you stop her from wearing half sleeves? Sleeveless tops? Or would stop her from wearing mini skirts?

And would that effort be changed if you get married to her.

The reason I ask this question is because of a certain conundrum I am faced with related to someone's life.

Click to expand...

If you have a problem with the way a woman dresses then you should not associate with her in the first place. Life is too short, why waste time.