Would you let your GF wear anything she wants? Your wife?
- Thread starter lifeinabucket
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it's possible but then there are detailed accounts/reports such as these: https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=13573
khair, it doesn't really matter.
Agar aap crime report USA aur Pakistan ki deikho gai tu hosh urr jain ge.
Mera point sirf itna hai Saudi Arabia dunya ki behtar societies mein se eeik hai. Kam as kam Western societies ke level ka social decay nahin hai wahan paar.
[MENTION=124622]neox3d[/MENTION]
I have already rested my case . You have provided not a shred of fact to support your opinion so i fail to see a point in continuing our argument.
Summarized answer
As i already have proven, stopping someone from evil is common sense. If the same common sense is applied to Islam, it becomes a matter of contention. Islamic model requires communal effort in eradication of sins. I might not be a alcoholic , for example, i can then stop you from indulging in alcohol. I am atleast allowed this by any sane world system to express my displeasure at your act or suggest you to stop. Freedom of speech isnt it? By same logic , If something is against Islamic law, in a country based on Islam(atleast in letter) i am atleast allowed to suggest you to stop. Common sense isnt as common as it sounds i guess.
Sparta was not a "religion" last time i checked. It was an autonomous city/state inside greece, and could not even maintain those rights beyond the greco-roman empire. If it did, the west wouldnt ve needed a "Renaissance". I specifically mentioned religions.Islam is the only "religion" in the world that provides sweeping rights to women. Rights that have transcended dynasties, civilizations etc. E.g Islam is the only religion allowing a women to initiate a divorce. No other religion has this. Christianity didnt even recognize divorce till the catholic church was "invented".Judaism still doesnt. It allows only the husband right to divorce.
One example in a thousand.
Hadith IS islamic law. You have done nothing to prove otherwise. There is no example of an act forbidden/allowed in Sunnah , that has not been accordingly forbidden/allowed in Shariah. Read through Shariah before making sweeping statements having no basis in reality. Nitpicking does not change meaning.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, specifically in the west. If it held no appeal, such growth would be illogical.
Statistics are available both with Guiness book of world records as well as the Institute on Culture, Religion & World Affairs at Boston University(World Religous Database). It is both the fastest growing religion in the USA as well as Europe. The two bastions of modern civilization.
If i were among atheists , our discussions would be welcome. It is downright shameful for me to be defending the fabric of Islam infront of muslims.
"And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see.
It is the same to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they will not believe."
Ya'Sin 9/10
Sent from my LG-E975
I have already rested my case . You have provided not a shred of fact to support your opinion so i fail to see a point in continuing our argument.
Summarized answer
As i already have proven, stopping someone from evil is common sense. If the same common sense is applied to Islam, it becomes a matter of contention. Islamic model requires communal effort in eradication of sins. I might not be a alcoholic , for example, i can then stop you from indulging in alcohol. I am atleast allowed this by any sane world system to express my displeasure at your act or suggest you to stop. Freedom of speech isnt it? By same logic , If something is against Islamic law, in a country based on Islam(atleast in letter) i am atleast allowed to suggest you to stop. Common sense isnt as common as it sounds i guess.
Sparta was not a "religion" last time i checked. It was an autonomous city/state inside greece, and could not even maintain those rights beyond the greco-roman empire. If it did, the west wouldnt ve needed a "Renaissance". I specifically mentioned religions.Islam is the only "religion" in the world that provides sweeping rights to women. Rights that have transcended dynasties, civilizations etc. E.g Islam is the only religion allowing a women to initiate a divorce. No other religion has this. Christianity didnt even recognize divorce till the catholic church was "invented".Judaism still doesnt. It allows only the husband right to divorce.
One example in a thousand.
Hadith IS islamic law. You have done nothing to prove otherwise. There is no example of an act forbidden/allowed in Sunnah , that has not been accordingly forbidden/allowed in Shariah. Read through Shariah before making sweeping statements having no basis in reality. Nitpicking does not change meaning.
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, specifically in the west. If it held no appeal, such growth would be illogical.
Statistics are available both with Guiness book of world records as well as the Institute on Culture, Religion & World Affairs at Boston University(World Religous Database). It is both the fastest growing religion in the USA as well as Europe. The two bastions of modern civilization.
If i were among atheists , our discussions would be welcome. It is downright shameful for me to be defending the fabric of Islam infront of muslims.
"And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see.
It is the same to them whether you warn them or you warn them not, they will not believe."
Ya'Sin 9/10
Sent from my LG-E975
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Excuse me?
Do you even know me? Do you know my wife? Do you know how she dresses?
Even if my wife dresses in a bikini it's none of your fucking concern.
Keep in your limits and don't be personal.
I stopped responding to you, when I realized that jo loug "Delusions mein rehtay hein ky their society is much better than others , contrary to what they see "
they are hopeless cases.
You wanna be a powerful egomaniac with high degree of myopia towards women and a personal sense of narcissism about how great you are, and how you are not a doormat, by all means exercise that right.
But don't judge my wife, or what I do.
I asked just what would you do in such a case. I NEVER EVER claimed that MY WIFE was doing it.
You know what Failure is BEta ?
Failure is inability to grasp the fact that there are 70 different religions in the world and each of them have just as much a right to claim the pathway to the heaven as your self-conceived perfect Islam is.
Sirf Kalima parh kar jo loug samjhtey hein na Baksh deyein jayein gy, chahay unki Harkatein jaisi bi hon , they are living in a fool's paradise.
Let me point out countless failures in Pakistan in last 60 years.
1. Falling stagnating economy.
2. No contribution in the field of science barring one exception in last 200 years.
3. No accountability anywhere.
4. No electricity in summer no gas in winter.
5. Men who think they can subjugate their women because they are their property...
i could keep going up to 50 and I wouldn't stop.
I never point out at the moral decay of the West , when our own house is just as worse.
Failure is you living in a fool's paradise thinking that if you control your family and wife you will go to heaven, and those who give their wife a certain degree of freedom are doomed to life of eternal damnation.
I have respected your opinions in all the posts and stopped talking to you when I realized it was banging my head against a wall.
But if you point out at my "PERCEIVED Failures in your eyes " and bring my wife into this, I will bring you to your knees.
And please go check my original post and the post after that. It wasn't my own wife I was talking about, not that it matters. I don't care what she wears and I don't really care what your wears. If she wears a Hijab so be it, I won't say that's a failure on your part.
This is my last post to you in this thread.
Keep living in your self-made coccoon that your society is best in the world, and Muslim society is the best in the world.
You may have rested your case but its an inadequate case...and thanks for the ad-hominem by the way. All the evidence is right there, you just don't like to accept it.
O bhai kahan se laitey ho misinformation, women can initiate divorce only under SOME CIRCUMSTANCES in islam...and even if that is the case, A qazi has to hear the case and if he finds no suitable reason the women is denied divorce in sharia. The wife, unlike man, cannot unilaterally divorce her husband, by calling out divorce 3 times succesfully.
The same is in Jewish law, if the huband has left her, or has commited adultery, the women can go to the Sanhedrin and ask for divorce and the Sanhedrin can force the man to divorce the woman.
Divorce is HARAAM in Christianity, except when one partner has commited adultery. Both men and women can initiate divorce since the time of hazrat Isa. So please get your facts straight.
What I wrote about all those nations is very important, because you claim Islam to be a complete culture not just a religion and I agree and I just wanted to update you that those cultures gave women rights long before Islam did. islam got it only in middle east though.
Repeating the same thing does not prove your case. The thing is there is not even proper agreement on Hadith, laws to bht duur ki bath hai. Islam is not monolithic you know.
The reason this is because west mei islam bht soft hai. Islam biggest issues in the west are Pork, Alcohol, Hijab, thats it. The day we brought SHaria law in front of everyone this west will kick us out. We are required to cut of hands of thief, flog the adulterous, stone the prostitue and behead the apostate. This is the Sharia law, and the civilized first world will not accept this, they still don't that is why many in europe are seriously considering to shut their borders and keep us out. So don't be under any illusions.
West mei aurat bhi namaz parha daiti hai masjid mei, jamaat bhi lead kar laiti hai, immamat krwati hai, Ye islam hai? ye islam nahi hai bhai meray.
I am not attacking Islam, I am criticizing our misuse and mistreatment of it...and sweeping away some illsuions of fake granduer which some have here of our great culture.
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Since you would like to take this further , so be it. An inadequate case would be one where you quote so called facts without any proof. Hence your post. You have not provided a single "source" for your points. If it were bonafide, giving a source would ve not been such an issue for you.
Oh bhai , misinformation is what you are spreading. The example was off the top of my head. Even a simple google search will enlighten you on the subject . Christianity recognized divorce "AFTER THE 17TH CENTURY". In Judaism, the law was " )amended". In its purest form it had no such law for women. Islam atleast give women the option under certain circumstances.My point stands unless proved otherwise by anything else than personal opinions.
My point exactly. Repeating the same without a shred of evidence does not change anything. You have not provided an example yet again. If you had such a strong case providing an example would be trivial. What sects beleive to be hadith is an entirely different issue.
I am quite amazed that you are giving your own "opinions" and passing that off as conventional wisdom. I gave you statistics. You gave an opinion on those statistics. Not facts. Islam in its real form is the most tolerant religion. It is free of discrimination. It is still the fastest growing regardless of opinions like yours.
And west main aurat nay sirf ik dafa nimaz parhai in new york. It was not even from a mainstream sect. Get your facts straight before misguiding the youth on this forum.
I will carry on this discussion once you bring something solid to the table , rather than what you "feel" on the subject. We have not followed the real Islam. That is our fault. Not Islam's. As i said. Downright shameful.
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Cahlo nayi kahani daal di hai ab...you jo aap itnay claims kar rahey hain, inki konsi support dee hai ap ney?
Kabhi christian history parhi hai? Jewish law parha hai? Both have these options. Christian law mei tou 2000 years pehle se hai, aur jewish law mei special conditions ki jaga islam ki tarah puri majood hain. Self congratulatory opions apney chor dain ap. Mei opinion nahi dey raha, tareekh utha kar parh lo. Konsi discrimination free hai...kya koi ghair muslim ap ka sadar ban sakta hai? army ka sarbarah ban sakta hai? nahi...wo sath waley india ko dekho, hindu ney 8 saal apney sar par, ek sikh or muslaman ko bithaya. Bithayo ek hindu ko sar par mulak chalaney k liye tou manoo mei.
Youa re simply misnformed about it. Un kitabon mei bhi yahi sab kuch likha hai, especially Islam k bht sarey kanoon law of moses mei pehley he hain, similar themes and all.
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When this point was made in post # 290;
- you were sleeping?
It is your responsibility to clarify that you are married or not and that you are talking about your wife or not. Don't give me "I wrote this in start of the thread." It is your responsibility to clarify your position in a discussion if assumptions are being made about your situation.
I do not live in delusions, I am realist in all aspects of life. You cannot judge me on the basis of some posts here, maybe my points give more toughness vibe then they should but I know when to stand-up for my values and I am not burger type like you.
Signs of burgernism in you:
1. Considers Western societies as role models for us to follow
2. Thinks that Western societies have less social decay then ours
3. Wrongly assumes that Pakistan women are victimized on the whole in Pakistan
4. Have little understanding of Islamic values but claims to be a Muslim
5. Believes in Western conceptions of gender equality but have no idea of gender rights as per Islamic values
6. Starts bringing issues of Pakistan in a discussion about another matter which is irrelevant thing to do
7. Assumes that "what I think is right" and others are jerks/male chauvinists
8. Does not understands the importance of setting boundaries in a marriage
9. Does not knows how to debate but knows how to whine.
Also, if you don't want people to make remarks about you, do not open threads about your personal matters or even those of others. If you do this then grow some spine and take the heat.
Next time you insult me and put labels on me, my response would be swift and decisive in accordance. I have tolerated enough of your BS already.
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Nai kahani koi nahien daali. The same discussion. It is what i have been saying all along. Someone's opinions do not count as evidence for a theory. I have qouted statistics of growth for one. Those statistics are a matter of public record . i have told you the sources of these statistics. I have given you research papers on treatment of women in ancient greece. I have quoted the hadith from an authentic source. I quoted the Quran. I could probably write a book on sources alone and you would respond with an opinion. Hence the futility of our discussion.
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When this point was made in post # 290;
- you were sleeping?
Fine I assume that your wife is a prostitute, are you gonna clarify that for me?
It's my responsibility to clarify if im married or not, and it's not your responsibility to check your facts before making sweeping statements?
Seriously Legend123 , i am beginning to question whether this discussion is worthwhile or not.
Like the way you judged me as a doormat on the basis of some posts?
Make up your mind.
You want to judge others, yet you do not want others to judge you.
Do you not see the clear hypocrisy?
Signs that you don't understand reality.
1. I consider any society which is progressive as role model. If Islamic society is progressing and successful, I'll consider that path to follow. If at the moment, Western society is successful, I try to follow their principles.
I don't blindly label people burger and then go attack them , when they don't follow Islamic way of life.
2. No they have social decay. But our social decay is present in all walks of life. Theirs is just in social decay related to rapes and prostitution.
3. Pakistani women are victimized a lot. We can agree to disagree.
4. I don't have to follow your thoughts Legend123 to make me complete Muslim. I have just as much a right to claim myself to be Muslim , then you do. There are Muslims in the West too, you know. Not just Pakistan.
5. I really don't want to answer that.
6. No the issues were brought by yourself. I merely brought the issue of dresses. It turned into Islamic way of life, and then Pakistan was brought into it. So please, if you stuck to the dresses part, there would be no Pakistan thing going on.
When you started praising Pakistan as the best in the world, I obviously had no choice but to show you your delusion.
7. No, it's rather you who is enforcing your opinion by making remarks like "Burger" and "Doormat". Had you refrained from making such remarks, I would never have told you that you live in delusions or feelings of grandeur。
Apny jo khud start kya, uska blame meray par na dalo. Please.
8. I don't believe in any boundaries in marriage. It's true. Marriage is made out of love. If your wife loves you, she will do whatever she wants for you to be happy.
If your marriage is just a contract, then off course you need boundaries.
I am pretty sure, if I start being personal with you, I would be handed a straight forward ban and you would run away.
Just because you are Mod, you are saying I should bear the heat
Ohh.... I tremble with fear.
You can put labels on me, yet no one can put labels on you.
Shall I bow before you , Your Majesty ?
Ban me if you can't bear the heat.
If it helps you sleep well at night, ban me permanently and keep living in denial.
Thank you!
I would have agreed with you a couple of years back. But now i think of it from a different perspective and i have my own questions.
I mean how we pakistani lick feet of foreign nationals in every department. You go to airport and even in your own country you have to stand in a huge queue while the diplomats are treated in a completely different manner. This is just an example. But if you start looking at saudi's from their perspective, they give their population free education, hospitals, their national's get all the facilities, absolutely no taxes, proper allocation of jobs, monthly pocket money to university students.
I dont know whether it is just me hating saudi's out of envy , something that we don't even get in our own country.
Of course there is a lot of bad apples in every population , rape, adultery is common in every population. But it is good that saudi's have some control over their media. At least they dont have 70 different factions of Islam being practiced there...
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I have given no theory, I gave you history, yet you refuse to accept it, I can only surmise that you are not aware of the historical context of the text or have not studied it or are simply misinformed. I have not contested your statistics, I didn't contest the papar you quoted on women in greece. Infact I apologized to you for my mistake. But what you are passing along with it is what I hold objection too and I have already told you that you need to check your facts about the dicvorce thing. Islam mei aurat ko divorce sirf kuch khas circumstances mei he allow hai, wo bhi agar Qazi ijazit dei, same like jewish law. Mard k tarah unilateral nahi hai. Brabari tou ye hai k aurat bhi 3 baar boley aur divorce ho jaye. Christian mazhab mei divovrce HARAAM hai, sirf zina/adultery k soorat mei allowed hai. Aur ye kanoon islam se bhi pehle ka hai.
Rights pehle bhi thay, bhai. Point ye nahi k aurat ne west mei ek baar azan dee k chaar bar, point ye hai k wahan islam mei ye azadi hai, wahan k law k mutabik app us ko nahi rok saktey, aur meray mutabiq wo islam nahi, kyunkey islam mei uski ijazat nahi hai. West k islam bht soft hai aur yahi waja hai uskey phailney ki, suadi wahabi islam agar app katar taur pe nafiz karo tou dekho west kitni jaldi palta kahta hai.
wtf is with the personal insults and Abuses will lead to baning?
I left this thread open because some good discussion was talking place here. But religious topics bring the worst out in our people.
Please stop talking things too far and control your words everyone. No one is going to ban anyone, please keep your religion and anger in check.
Remember Mutual Respect is the foundation of PakGamers. We will not tolerated breaking it one little bit .....!!!
I left this thread open because some good discussion was talking place here. But religious topics bring the worst out in our people.
Please stop talking things too far and control your words everyone. No one is going to ban anyone, please keep your religion and anger in check.
Remember Mutual Respect is the foundation of PakGamers. We will not tolerated breaking it one little bit .....!!!
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And why would you make this kind of assumption? I am not the one who is discussing my personal matters here or that of others. It is illogical for you to make assumptions about my personal matters.
And you have serious mental issues, I think. Why would label someone's wife as prostitute just for the sake of argument? Did I regard your wife in such a way?
I adopted analogous tone, not confirmative tone. When you didn't clarify your position after post # 290, I assumed that you are likely discussing your personal situation. When you are having a discussion with someone [You started an argument with me in the first place], it is your responsibility to clarify your position. This is discussion ethics.
You whine a lot.
You haven't responded to my points like a man but you have chosen to label me male chauvinist. My assertions are as follows once again:-
1. Define boundaries in marriage
2. Have stronger sense of self-worth and don't let your wife to walk over you. This doesn't implies male supremacy in any way or form.
3. A strong man is likely to be a strong father-figure. The word "strong" doesn't implies abusive individual in any way or form but a person who is assertive, wise and knows when to stand up for his values.
This is all. You spun my assertions in an entirely different direction.
Emasculated men commit following errors:
1. Do not define boundaries in their marriages.
2. Believe in gender equality but let their wives walk over them. Doormat projection; have little sense of self-worth.
3. Falsely regard men with relatively stronger sense of self-worth and superior moralistic values as male chauvinists and jerks.
Emasculated men plus burger types have following mindset:
1. Have little understanding of their own values but believe in supremacy of others like Western cultures and norms.
2. Whine about societal evils but do not realistically analyze ground realities around them.
3. Have little knowledge of their own surroundings.
Continue to read below...
And this is exactly where you are wrong. Tell me which Western society is progressive and in what sense?
Economic? All Western societies are doing poorly in this front
Social? All Western societies are in decay in this front
Also, this particular discussion of comparative societal values have nothing to do with discussion at hand.
Rapes and prostitution are small issues? Their are signs of corruption in Western societies in all walks of life actually. Institution of marriage is in decline in those societies, over there men try to screw even married women; cheating have reached epidemic proportions; promotion of pornography; too much objectification of women.
Sweeping generalization. In some parts of the country, yes. In the entire country, no.
If you claim yourself to be a Muslim, then educate yourself about Islamic conceptions of right and wrong in proper fashion and gender rights as per Islamic values, specially role of men in Islam.
Don't be a hypocrite.
Whatever analogies I presented, they were in a certain context. I blew nothing out of proportion.
I pointed out Pakistan in the context of societal decay actually, I pointed out that when their is no accountability of bad/questionable behavior in a society, it spreads and corrupts the entire society. The purpose of this analogy was not to compare Pakistan with any other society but that "you don't compromise on bad/questionable behavior, period." Check post # 262 for confirmation.
Also, your personal values are defined by your beliefs which includes religion.
You cannot separate Islam from social matters. Islam is not some set of rules, it is a complete way of life for people.
A Muslim Man will not compromise on modesty factor of his wife, same cannot be said about a non-Muslim man. As I pointed out before, every Muslim man should know what is right and wrong as per Islamic values. And standing up for your values (if you are not in the wrong) doesn't makes you abuser of women like you mistakenly assumed in your post # 269 directed towards me.
Clear?
Those labels are used to shake people out of passivity and give them stronger sense of self-worth. They are used normally in discussions, specially in communities about relationships to shake people out of passivity and make them realize that they need to stand up for their values (if they are not in the wrong) and not let others walk all over them.
This label "male chauvinist" is a feminist method of insulting sense of self-worth of men. This is not the right label to throw around in a discussion.
Clear?
Well, this is your personal mindset but you are wrong here. Even a Western professional will tell you this.
Why boundaries are important in a marriage?
Ans: To prevent decay and destruction of marriages. People change with passage of time, never assume that they will remain the same throughout their lives.
Their are books on this matter: Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: 9780310243144: Amazon.com: Books
Most importantly, you can learn a great deal about importance of boundaries in marriage in relationship forums (Western as well).
I am not running away from this situation. Also, you need to check your tone in discussions, when did you cross the lines?I am pretty sure, if I start being personal with you, I would be handed a straight forward ban and you would run away.
Just because you are Mod, you are saying I should bear the heat
1. Labeled me male chauvinist.
2. Insulted me in post # 328. You should have clarified your position earlier in this thread to avoid this situation as I pointed out to you in post # 334.
3. Assumed about my wife as a prostitute without reason, something you shouldn't do.
In the nutshell, you need to learn about debating ethics.
You have crossed the line several times in your responses to me by now. I pointed out some above. This is very serious matter. Don't do this.Ohh.... I tremble with fear.
You can put labels on me, yet no one can put labels on you.
Shall I bow before you , Your Majesty ?
Ban me if you can't bear the heat.
If it helps you sleep well at night, ban me permanently and keep living in denial.
Thank you!
My patience clock is ticking. When the time will come to make a decision, it will set an example for others in this community to not cross lines.
I don't mind if you throw mild labels in a discussion but you should learn to differentiate between what constitutes as an insult and what not.
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